First Flinter?

[Scota@4570]

All the kit suppliers other than Kibler and Chambers do it the same.

I have not done business with TVM.

Generally speaking, they are parts set bundlers. You get a partially completed pantograph stock. I may or may not work out. Sometimes those stocks are messed up and will not make a quality rifle. The lock will be made from hastily assembled cast parts by one of two companies. The brass parts are sourced from specialty foundries. It may be nice soft yellow brass. It may be brittle yellow metal. An experience builder can usually make a nice rifle from these parts sets. A new guy is likely to have trouble and produce an unfortunate clunky looking rifle.

I think the extra money spent on a Kibler is well worth it. The time and frustration saving is huge. You will get a really nice rifle first time. It is training wheels to learn how a rifle should be made.

 

[GoodRabbitPilgrim]

I hear all this amazing stuff about kibler but their communication is pretty poor. I've been waiting nearly a month for a reply on my questions. I did receive an email saying I wasn't being ignored but then nothing since then.

 

[oldhunter1954]

I hear all this amazing stuff about kibler but their communication is pretty poor. I've been waiting nearly a month for a reply on my questions. I did receive an email saying I wasn't being ignored but then nothing since then.

Wow. I have only emailed them twice and both times Katherine responded in a few days. I was hoping to see them at the CLA show but I did not make it to the show.

 

[Snooterpup]

I have heard good things about TVM, but have never seen one up close or had any opportunity to see how they are assembled and breech plug types as well as the styling being correct so cannot comment.

The concerns that Scota@4570 pointed out are very real. With the price point of Pedersoli Great Plains rifles at $1049 assembled or $799.00 as a kit, and Kibler's at $1,075 with standard grade wood, I would recommend continuing to saving your money toward a better product if you want something you'll not regret in a few years. This is only meant as advice for someone who really wants to jump into this hobby in a big way. For the casual shooter that is concerned with the cost, by all means get whatever you can afford and have fun with it, learn and enjoy the fun of black powder shooting. Flintlocks are much more dependent on top quality parts and workmanship for them to work and perform consistently well.

To get into the hobby in a less expensive way you may want to start with a percussion rifle as they perform pretty well. Their locks are not nearly as complicated and usually the guns are reliable and acceptably accurate. For used, a Thompson/Center percussion Hawken works pretty well. Make sure the barrel is in good condition. L&R makes replacement locks that are more traditional for these as well.

I had a Thompson/Center percussion Hawken for years but after switching to flintlock rifle, found that quality is paramount. The Pedersoli Hatfield flintlock was a major disappointment with the lock bolt not even drilled perpendicular to the lock plate. The plate needed to be brazed closed, re-drilled and tapped. The spring was weak and had to be replaced with a modified L&R mainspring. The .25 caliber chambered breech on a .50 caliber gun made the gun more unreliable due to fouling build up in the long flash channel during long shooting sessions. Our forefathers would not have staked their lives on a poor performing flintlock.

Best wishes for you in your decision and enjoy whatever you get!

 

[smoothshooter]

I like the look of the southern mountain rifle, but what's with the $200 billed seperately bit? Am I to understand that it's $1,075 rather than $875?

I think it’s a tax thing and whether an enterprise ( Kibler ) is actually classed as a “ manufacturer “ or not. Kinda like the Indian imported guns coming into the country without the flash-holes drilled so they don’t have to get an importlicense for “ firearms “.
Could be a limited liability protection thing too.
Caywood Guns does the same thing.
There may be other reasons in play that I can think of, but I’m sure others here can give a better explanation.

 

[smoothshooter]

Well, after having owned a percussion hawken for a while I'm wanting to branch out into flintlock long rifles. What should I get? I'd prefer not to spend a crazy amount of money, but definitely don't want to be pulling my hair out at the range. I've been looking at the track of the wolf kits but that seems well above my skill grade. Where can I get pre-made rifles based off of these kits or something similar?

An option would be for you to buy a factory, mass-produced gun that can be upgraded with a top-of -the -line flintlock lock. L & R, for example, offere a line of locks called RPL Locks made for just that purpose. They are the same locks used by many custom builders, but have the lock plates shaped to fit into the existing lock recess of mass-produced guns with supposedly minor fitting.
The important thing is to spend the money for one of l the best locks available.
On a flinter, the lock is the worst place to try to save money. I would rather have a gun with a mediocre stock and marginal accuracy barrel with a good lock than vice-versa.

 

[Osseon]

I hear all this amazing stuff about kibler but their communication is pretty poor. I've been waiting nearly a month for a reply on my questions. I did receive an email saying I wasn't being ignored but then nothing since then.

Are you asking Jim or the other staff? I emailed Jim about something and he gave me a very personable response with detail in like 2 days. Next time I emailed him I had no response until I called the number provided on his website, and the lady read the email and helped, I email her from now on as Jim is probably in the shop all day.

 

[DrLaw]

This seriously must be a paid Kibler promotion website. Why is it every single person who posts about wanting their first flintlock, is suddenly steered toward Kibler kits? Again I'll say it, I'm not knocking Kiblers in any way, but it makes me wonder why people are so quick to offer up a thousand dollar plus kit to a newbie. The man said he doesn't want to spend a crazy amount of money. Now when I hear that, I'm hearing "I don't want to spend a grand, plus on a flintlock". Maybe a Lyman GPR, or a Pedersoli rifle may be a better choice. I'm just saying.

It's real easy to offer up something to someone when it isn't you spending the money.

Have you tried or seen a Kibler? For what it is, a CNC machined kit, it is a great gun. I am by no means a gunsmith, but I churned out a gun that is now on their website as an example of what can be done, even by a novice. I had a Pedersoli and I can now see the flaws in it that I only learned about by watching the Kibler videos. Even though my Ped is now about $500 more than the Kibler to get, I don't think I would have paid that knowing what I know now.

Simply put, Jim came up with a great product.

The Doc is out now.

 

[Scota@4570]

"communication is pretty poor..............."

Really???? That is not my experience.

Call them with a telephone. They will answer. Jim answers even when he is not in the shop. I have spoke to him while he was driving to the grocery store. He takes his business very seriously.

Replacement locks for existing guns? I have experience with this. It will not drop in. Work is necessary. The only flint locks I would expect to work as delivered are Kibler and Siler as assembled by Chambers. There are other decent locks out there. They are short run and full custom locks. Anything you buy for under $200 will probably need significant work to make it right.

Kibler fanboy? Maybe, but only because in every important way it is vastly better than anything else that has ever been marketed to the public. I am making this claim as a gunsmith, machinist and ML builder of 40 years.

 

[DrLaw]

I appreciate all the advice. That kibler is starting to grow on me. It looks pretty labor intensive to my skillset though. Am I mistaken in noticing that it appears in addition to finishing the edges of the metal, I need to do some inletting for the lock and barrel? Not to mention drilling screw holes? As to caliber, how capable is .45 at getting out there? I already have a .50 for hunting the big stuff, this one would be more for just plinking but I like to reach out as far as I can. I notice the southern mtn rifle only gets as big as .45, will that hurt long range capability?

I am a novice at gun building. That is what attracted me to the Kibler, that most of the hard stuff has been done, and it is up to you to do the rest. Just have the tools he recommends and even with two left thumbs you should be able to build it. I did.

PS. I even did a little carving of the cheek rest. (Second photo)

The Doc is out now.

 

[DrLaw]

I hear all this amazing stuff about kibler but their communication is pretty poor. I've been waiting nearly a month for a reply on my questions. I did receive an email saying I wasn't being ignored but then nothing since then.

When I ordered, I told them I was not going to pester them. I did ask my questions prior to ordering and Jim answered promptly both times. I kept true to my word about not bothering them, too. They have a hell of a backlog right now and if you check their website, you will see wait times. Jim (Katherine) has it on the website what you will need to build the guns. The instructions you will get help that. Watching his videos on YouTube will greatly increase your understanding.

Now if you really have some burning question, e-mail or phone Katherine.

The Doc is out now.

 

[BadDaditood]

Golf is less frustrating than a cheep import flint lock….

 

[BadDaditood]

This seriously must be a paid Kibler promotion website. Why is it every single person who posts about wanting their first flintlock, is suddenly steered toward Kibler kits? Again I'll say it, I'm not knocking Kiblers in any way, but it makes me wonder why people are so quick to offer up a thousand dollar plus kit to a newbie. The man said he doesn't want to spend a crazy amount of money. Now when I hear that, I'm hearing "I don't want to spend a grand, plus on a flintlock". Maybe a Lyman GPR, or a Pedersoli rifle may be a better choice. I'm just saying.

It's real easy to offer up something to someone when it isn't you spending the money.

Maybe you’re the only one here who’s never built or even shot a Kibler?
I love his first two and am on the list for the next one, might be a smoothbore(?).
I talk up Jim and Katherine every chance I get because you Can’t go wrong with their products.
I don’t get a dime, I’ve never even met them.

 

[EC121]

The tax thing on muzzleloaders all started in the 1970s when John Bivins, et. al., took a contract to build 100 bicentennial rifles for the State of Pennsylvania. The IRS got in the act and said(after they had built several guns) that made him a manufacturer, he had to pay the10% excise tax on the guns he had made so far. After a court battle, it was agreed that anyone making over 50 guns in a year owed the tax. Even in a knocked down condition, a full set of parts is taxable. This allows the custom builders to stay in business because they can't make 50 guns in a year. So, the high volume sellers don't sell a complete set of parts in one box to avoid tax problems. For a while in that time, you had to buy the parts yourself and send them to the custom builder. He was then just the assembler but never owned the parts thus avoiding the tax.

 

[Osseon]

Moral of the story, you can find a deal on a decent flintlock. It just takes time. Get antsy and be prepared to shell out.

How much skill was involved in making the kit?

 

[Scota@4570]

How much skill was involved in making the kit?

Almost no inletting is needed. The parts can be forced into place. Any parts that fit to tight as made require slight adjustment by scraping or shaving wood, use sharpie marker for spotting stuff and an exacto knife. You need to drill the pin holes in the barrel. Drill guides are provided. The holes in the wood are predrilled. The wood requires light sanding. All shaping is done. The barrel needs draw fling. The sights slip in the dovetails as is. All the holes are already drilled and tapped. The but plate requires a rasp and a small amount of patience. Finishing the wood and metal is as easy or complicated as you want. Cold blue and thinned varnish will do. Use AF stain. Jim has videos that explain it step by step. Watch the video.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK-DUN4pHdQm-yeIDchwuzQ

 

[Sidney Smith]

I think the extra money spent on a Kibler is well worth it. The time and frustration saving is huge. You will get a really nice rifle first time. It is training wheels to learn how a rifle should be made.

True statement, but there are still cheaper training wheels out there.

 

[mmb617]

I must be a lucky guy. In the short time I've been here I've seen an awful lot of bashing Traditions, especially the low end Deerhunter rifles. Junk locks, drive newbies away from flintlocks, etc... Three months ago I bought one of those sub $400 Deerhunter flintlocks. It was the first muzzleloader I ever owned and in fact I'd never fired any type of black powder gun, so I knew less than nothing about the whole deal.

And yet I've been nothing but happy with it. As of today I've fired 726 rounds through it without having done anything to the factory lock. I usually get 60 or so shots out of one flint, and it's pretty reliable about firing, at least in my eyes. That reliability would be higher if I didn't push my flints to the point of having a misfire before I knap or replace them.

I was so satisfied with the rifle that two months ago I bought a Traditions Trapper flintlock pistol. Now here I did encounter a problem. I simply could not get a decent spark right from the get-go. I think that perhaps the frizzen wasn't properly hardened because as soon as I replaced the frizzen it started working just as well as the rifle. The frizzen cost something like $28 and was easy to replace. To date 346 rounds have gone down range via the pistol and it's flint consumption is about the same as the rifle.

My son saw how much fun I was having and wanted in on it, so he bought a Traditions Pennsylvania rifle not long after I bought my rifle and it also has performed well.

I am not doubting that there are much higher quality flintlocks out there, but it's hard for me to imagine getting as much "bang for the buck" out of them. And I'm not saying that I won't buy a higher end gun in the future, but I am saying that it's not mandatory to spend big bucks to get started in this sport.

It kind of reminds me so some of the car forums I'm on. Some guys think that if you don't spend major bucks buying Snap-On tools you are throwing your money away. While those are top notch tools there are others that can get the job done for a lot less money. Top of the line in any product is nice but most of us have budget constraints.

 

[dave951]

How much skill was involved in making the kit?

In my kit, there was a bit of inletting, mainly in the trigger area. The stock was roughed but some 120 grit and a random orbital sander made short work of the main sanding. I finish sanded by hand with 220.

Of the metal parts, there was some clean up of casting marks in some of the brass, namely but plate, trigger guard and nose cap. There was a problem with the screw hole that accepts the lock plate screw. I had to chase the threads with a tap. Under barrel rib was too long and needed to be cut. Front sight dovetail needed some work.

Then it was just assembly. I'd say this old Cabela's kit was harder than a current production Traditions but not by much. Anyone with a passing knowledge of tools could do it if the brain tool stayed engaged throughout.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I hear all this amazing stuff about kibler but their communication is pretty poor. I've been waiting nearly a month for a reply on my questions. I did receive an email saying I wasn't being ignored but then nothing since then.

I have only good to say about Jim Kibler. Communication was easy and their responses were helpful. Lorie was quick to respond and enjoyable to talk with. And my SMR arrived today!!!!