First Build

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Dave Person is the real deal, you'll be hard pressed to find a more knowledgeable guy that is so willing to share what he knows, this forum and those that frequent it are fortunate to have him.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Red,
I owed you the apology. I can assure you I am no bully just grouchy that day. I was having a very hard time forming a Lehigh muzzle cap and actually cracked one side of the barrel channel trying to final fit it. I was in a bad mood and I should never post anything when I am, which is pretty rare.

dave

 

[RedRiverII]

Thank you @1950DAVE The internet has loads of information and I've already began to study this type rifle and the way it operates. Building one should be a charm. I'm retired, although still busy, I have plenty of time to figure a build out. Of course I expect to ask tons of questions right here,

 

[qz2026_1]

I for one, have no particular skills but enough to assemble a Kibler kit but it does involve buying some good tools, especially chisels which I have done. And, I really feel that the experience of assembling these might take the fear our of building some of the more challenging kits. Jim found a niche market and has created an exceptional product. Additionally, he has created very detailed video content on YouTube to walk you through the process step by step for each of his rifles. I always wanted to attack one of the traditional kits but never had the courage to do it. Maybe, now at some point in the future, I might. I suppose that I will say that for someone new to this process, Kibler is the only way to go.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

I have some skills gathered from 40 yrs as a plumber. I am considering buying a kit from Jim Chambers or Kibler. Which would you suggest?

In light of some of the regretted posts/response from our members here it made me think of my construction days. I worked with all commercial construction trades, being a carpenter myself. I will aways remember the fun feuding between the plumbers and the pipe fitters. Naturally both always claimed to be in the best trade and of course the other was trash.

 

[BJamesBeck]

I'll throw my hat in the ring here and also recommend a Kibler kit, with the caveat that I have only built one rifle so far and it was a Kibler kit (so I can't speak to Chambers kits, though I have only ever heard good things and will build one at some point). That being said, I would give this recommendation because they go together fairly quickly and easily for someone with general crafting skills, and set you up to be able to make a beautiful firearm that you can get out and enjoy shooting sooner. Now I will also follow that up by saying that a Kibler kit is also a slippery slope, because now I want to build another one, as well as a more involved kit where I do more of the work myself. Is this what addiction feels like...?

 

[Barry Strickland]

Larry, I started my life as a plumber apprentice and soon switched to pipefitter. I was told the easy way you could tell a plumber from a pipefitter was to stand them both side by side in a barrel. Then, fill the barrel with sewage up to their shoulders, swing a baseball bat at their heads and the plumber will duck every time.

 

[RedRiverII]

It's a luxury problem or challenge. I'm tempted to go with the Kibler for a first build, but the Chambers is still beckoning. I am in contact with a fellow I ordered a couple of book from and they will be here Friday. The long rifle flintlock has opened my imagination enough to begin a sincere study. I'm a big fan of stand ump folks. Challenging a mighty nation for sake of ideals intrigues me to no end. I was not aware our firearms were rifled and that being so was a great advantage. I am new in this topic so my inexperience will show in my remarks. Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance only needs to be accepted as a challenge to grow and not a rebuke from a higher power. Men who stand side by side, men who know what it means to "Stand Fast", are a wonderful sight to see and a terrific thing to be part of. These rifles and my limited knowledge of them is a fine stepping stone toward a further love of Country. Making rifles from wagon wheel rims is beyond ingenious, it is a remarkable response to an accepted threat. A call to duty freely shared among brothers both by blood and necessity. Damn this is a great time to learn about Flintlocks and History!!!

BTW The only time a pipe fitter will be regarded higher than a plumber is in the dictionary, and even that is by a thread.

 

[BJamesBeck]

It's a luxury problem or challenge. I'm tempted to go with the Kibler for a first build, but the Chambers is still beckoning. I am in contact with a fellow I ordered a couple of book from and they will be here Friday. The long rifle flintlock has opened my imagination enough to begin a sincere study. I'm a big fan of stand ump folks. Challenging a mighty nation for sake of ideals intrigues me to no end. I was not aware our firearms were rifled and that being so was a great advantage. I am new in this topic so my inexperience will show in my remarks. Ignorance is not bliss. Ignorance only needs to be accepted as a challenge to grow and not a rebuke from a higher power. Men who stand side by side, men who know what it means to "Stand Fast", are a wonderful sight to see and a terrific thing to be part of. These rifles and my limited knowledge of them is a fine stepping stone toward a further love of Country. Making rifles from wagon wheel rims is beyond ingenious, it is a remarkable response to an accepted threat. A call to duty freely shared among brothers both by blood and necessity. Damn this is a great time to learn about Flintlocks and History!!!

BTW The only time a pipe fitter will be regarded higher than a plumber is in the dictionary, and even that is by a thread.

As you keep reading you'll find that many in the colonial army carried smoothbore guns, moreso than rifles, and plenty fighting for the crown also carried rifles. It wasn't necessarily the massive advantage it is often hyped up to be. With that said the longrifle has certainly become a very American firearm throughout the years and building one will help you to come closer to our roots as a nation.

Also I was by no means trying to talk you out of a Chambers kit, just sharing my experience, which for now is limited to Kibler. If you keep doing your research and take your time with the work, I have no doubt that either one would result in a beautiful rifle that you can enjoy for many years to come!

 

[RedRiverII]

I am glad for your input @BJamesBeck. I will accept all opinions and sort through them. I served in the early 70's and did experience foul treatment for my service. I helped carry one of our wounded for 30 years, a real hero who was treated horribly. I mention him because he was a far better man than I, he needed help to survive and suffered way longer than he should have. It was fitting he died on Christmas Eve, the same day as Norman Vincent Peale, although not the same year. I am glad to be proud of my Nation especially during these times, and yes this site has brought me closer to our roots as a Nation.

I told you I was ignorant didn't I ? Now I must dig deeper into Colonial arms and the numbers of weapons of both sides. Thanks

 

[pooch156]

Fellows, please understand I did say it was a magnificent post he laid out, or perhaps terrific was the word. I had figured out he was/is the go to guy. I appreciate your responses, I did not come to make bad friends but good friends. I have blocked Mr. Dave and do not wish to argue, fight, or continue a broken thread. It is my experience on the internet that new guys are sometimes victims of bullies. The intention as I figure is to put me in my place, category, or some chump pile. I've been there and done that. No way I'm sitting in the back of the class. I have an earnest interest in flintlock rifles and choose to stay here. I'm going to learn as much as I can from my betters, however I won't stand for any abuses not earned. Enough of the bologna from me. I do understand sometimes well intentioned words reflect back in different ways to different folk. I'll drop the ignore and see what's what. Thank you all once more.

The written word is often taken out of context but in this instance I don't think that was the case. We must all be aware of what our motives are whenever we're doing whatever it is we're doing. Again, in this case, I think Dave was aware of what his motives were and the insult was deliberate. Case in point, if there had been no rebuttle by you and others as to Dave's comments do you think that he, all by himself, would do some soul searching and come to the conclusion that he was wrong and apologized to you? Doubtful. But then, this isn't just about Dave is it? It's simply about people not giving thought to the impact of their message before they say it. I, for one, am most assuredly guilty of the same. In fact my words could be brutal. Oh yeah, I spoke from the podium of (perceived) hierarchy. Actually I was being a pompous ass. I think that I have grown up a bit since then.
I do my best to respect others and in turn respect myself. Boundaries have been set. No one gets to compromise my principles nor dictate my self worth.
I built my first flinter 20 years ago. It. was an Isaac Haines with a Getz .50 caliber swamped barrel and a cherry stock. It was a kit but far from being a Kibler or Chambers. Much work was to be done. Although being a woodworker, I had never been a wood carver . . . different game. My full time job was working construction. Heavy equipment, jackhammers, shovels, concrete etc.. I had never built a rifle nor carved a stock. But I had one thing in my favor . . . I was mechanically inclined . . . like you. I bought a rudimentary set of carving tools and a copy of Dixon's Pennsylvania Longrifle. Then I went to work. For a first rifle it turned out pretty good and also a fine shooter. I've built a Tennessee Mtn. and a Tennessee Southern Mtn. since then. Each one turns out a little better than the previous one. I'm working on a J. Armstrong right now and am having fun. So . . . have at it my friend!!!!! And be nice everyone!!
Pic of first Rifle:

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

As far as my experience with the plumber / fitter feud, it was explained to me thusly, "for a plumber to become a fitter one needs only to pass a test, for a fitter to become a plumber one must serve an apprenticeship" I invested a bit over thirty years in the industry.

Many of the later "builders" were/are fortunate enough to find a mentor, I am in this category, that has and will make all of the difference in this process, the books are good but nothing can substitute for apprenticing yourself to a builder and completing a project under their direct supervision, it is invaluable to be able to ask a question and have a single answer, the forums are problematic in that there are a boatload of individuals tossing answers around every which way and each and every one of them has a different skillset, again with a single mentor everything comes into focus. That all said, my mentors quote that sticks with me each and every day is that "there is no part of gun making that is sacred" meaning all aspects of a build are subject to alterations, even a bench copy can be altered some.

 

[Sidney Smith]

For your first gun, strictly speaking of the two you mentioned, Id go with the Kibler. You will get an idea as to whats involved in assembly, but without actually having to do much in the way of inletting, etc. Try it, see how it goes. You may decide that having the gun is worth more to you than having to do real work to build one. And you get a beautiful firearm in the end regardless.

Now, if you want a challenge then the other kit might be what youre after. However, if me, Id want to dip my toes into the water before diving in head first. Theres nothing worse than realizing youre in over your head, after youve spent a lot of money on something. Not saying you will, but its happened to most of us at one time or another Im sure.

A third option would be to purchase a Traditions kit. Theyre on the low end of the kit spectrum and you get what you pay for, but theyre a good choice for a beginner to try, and if you screw it up, you're not out nearly as much money as you would be with the other two. Only thing with option three is, you will tire of it quickly and want something better. But there are a lot of them out there, and a lot of guys love them. I just dont happen to be one.

 

[BJamesBeck]

I am glad for your input @BJamesBeck. I will accept all opinions and sort through them. I served in the early 70's and did experience foul treatment for my service. I helped carry one of our wounded for 30 years, a real hero who was treated horribly. I mention him because he was a far better man than I, he needed help to survive and suffered way longer than he should have. It was fitting he died on Christmas Eve, the same day as Norman Vincent Peale, although not the same year. I am glad to be proud of my Nation especially during these times, and yes this site has brought me closer to our roots as a Nation.

I told you I was ignorant didn't I ? Now I must dig deeper into Colonial arms and the numbers of weapons of both sides. Thanks

Nothing wrong with not knowing as long as you're willing to improve, which it appears you are. I have a Master's degree in history and still learn something new almost every day! The mind is like a parachute, it works best if it's open!

Also, just a sight note, here is a photo of the Kibler I completed, which was my first flintlock built, first flintlock shot, and first flintlock owned. Best of luck to ya!

 

[longcruise]

Nothing wrong with not knowing as long as you're willing to improve, which it appears you are. I have a Master's degree in history and still learn something new almost every day! The mind is like a parachute, it works best if it's open!

Also, just a sight note, here is a photo of the Kibler I completed, which was my first flintlock built, first flintlock shot, and first flintlock owned. Best of luck to ya!
View attachment 75847

What's with throwing a nice rifle on a pile of wood and then throwing an axe at it. ???

 

[BJamesBeck]

What's with throwing a nice rifle on a pile of wood and then throwing an axe at it. ???

Testing it for structural integrity obviously!

 

[longcruise]

Looks like it passed with flying colors.

 

[Jim Wag]

Larry, I started my life as a plumber apprentice and soon switched to pipefitter. I was told the easy way you could tell a plumber from a pipefitter was to stand them both side by side in a barrel. Then, fill the barrel with sewage up to their shoulders, swing a baseball bat at their heads and the plumber will duck every time.

The plumber opens the pipes
and exclaims . . .
Smells like money!

Jim in La Luz

 

[RedRiverII]

I see it as fitting whenever gentlemen appear in earnest.
The St. Crispin’s Day speech from Henry V
by Private: William Shakespeare
King Henry V: What’s he that wishes so?
My cousin Westmoreland? No, my fair cousin:
If we are mark’d to die, we are enow
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God’s will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires:
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England:
God’s peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more, methinks, would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made
And crowns for convoy put into his purse:
We would not die in that man’s company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say ‘To-morrow is Saint Crispian:’
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say ‘These wounds I had on Crispin’s day.’
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he’ll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember’d.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne’er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember’d;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.

From Henry V, Act IV, Scene III

 

[RedRiverII]

The books have not arrived yet. The itch to get started is now a rash, is that why we sometimes make rash decisions? I am edging closer to the Jim Chambers models in kit form. Drilling exact holes in both metal and wood is a tedious and exacting skill but can be done with care. Fitting parts to shape is also tedious but not scary. Marking and drilling that inlet hole should take time. Fitting metal to wood and shaving the wood to mate well will take time. All in all I'm going to make a decision soon and will let you know which rifle I choose. I don't have my eye glasses on so I hope there aren/t too many mistakes.