First build. Would like PC/HC advice

Discussion in 'The Gun Builder's Bench' started by Bootz, Jun 3, 2019.

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  1. Jun 3, 2019 #1

    Bootz

    Bootz

    Bootz

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    Hey everyone, This is my first post. Thank you for letting me join the group.

    I'm about to start my first rifle kit. I bought the Kibler Colonial and have found some things I would like to add. My concern is that I don't want to mistakenly build something that is PC/HC out of whack.

    So here goes! First, I have found I really prefer the way wedges look rather than barrel pins. Second, I have a replica 1794 flowing hair coin I would like to inlay if it's not sacrilegious.

    Thoughts and advice greatly appreciated!
     
  2. Jun 3, 2019 #2

    Bootz

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    This is the coin
     

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  3. Jun 3, 2019 #3

    tenngun

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    Wedges were rare in the eighteenth century. I’ve not seen a gun I remember from that time with wedges.
    People did inlet good luck symbols in their guns. Silver was stuck in wrist and coins were silver and could have special meaning to some one. I’ve not seen a coin inlet at this time.
    Here in the Ozarks coffin nails were stuck in guns to stop the gun from being hexed. Hex signs were placed on some Pennsylvania made guns and Christian symbols. Plains Indians used brass tacks and decorative pieces were pinned on guns by Eastern Indians.
    Fine and not so fine carving was stuck on after the build.
    I would steer away from wedges and think long before fitting a coin.
     
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  4. Jun 3, 2019 #4

    45man

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    Stay with the history.
     
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  5. Jun 3, 2019 #5

    Loyalist Dave

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    Well, that's a replica 1794 silver dollar. I'm not sure that the Kibler kit is of the right time period for the builder to have access to that coin as I think the rifle style would've been built earlier (but that's just me), and I doubt that the owner would take the rifle back to have it inlayed in 1794. A dollar was also 1 week's pay for some hunters, and I'm not sure they would've used a dollar, unless the rifle would be that of a rather well off fellow. You might consider a "Pine Tree Penny" replica coin instead of what would've been the 18th century equivalent to a $500 dollar bill.

    The coin was designed by Paul Revere, or so the ads say, so a rather patriotic fellow might have an inlay of the "liberty tree" put into his stock.

    PINE TREE PENNY.jpg

    https://coinreplicas.com/product/massachusetts-pine-tree-copper-1776/

    LD
     
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  6. Jun 3, 2019 #6

    Pete G

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    Pins are not only correct, they also give the rifle a lot cleaner uncluttered look.
     
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  7. Jun 3, 2019 #7

    dave_person

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    Hi,
    J P Beck used barrel wedges (keys) and so did a few other 18th century long rifle makers. Virtually all English fowling guns of even modest quality had barrel keys during most of the 18th century. However, from a practical standpoint, keys don't make much sense without a hook tang and breech because that system was designed to make removing the barrel for cleaning easy. That said, several "Golden Age" long rifle makers still used keys instead of pins even without a hooked breech. A quick glance at Rifles in Colonial America vol 1 shows 8-9 rifles with keys particularly Buck's County guns, which often had hook breeches. When I built my first J P Beck years ago, I looked into this and discovered that he used them on some rifles even his early ones.

    dave
     
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  8. Jun 3, 2019 #8

    Bootz

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    Thank you everyone! I appreciate your help!
     
  9. Jun 3, 2019 #9

    Bootz

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    Sweet! Thanks!
     
  10. Jun 3, 2019 #10

    Bootz

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    Thank you! I'll check out the resource.

    I wasn't sure exactly what time frame this kit was meant for and the more I read about it, the more confused I became.
     
  11. Jun 3, 2019 #11

    dave_person

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    Hi,
    Jim's rifle is not a copy of any existing original gun as far as I know. It actually embodies the architecture that Jim developed for his own custom guns. That said, it combines early features of American long rifles from the Lancaster area during late colonial and Rev War periods and some influence from mid-18th century English fowlers. It is very appropriate for a period between 1760-1780.

    dave
     
  12. Jun 3, 2019 #12

    Eric Krewson

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    I have always advised if you plan to keep the gun forever do what you like with it, but...... If you plan to sell it in the future the coin won't have the same appeal to a buyer as it does to you and will look like a huge wart on a super models face to them.
     
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  13. Jun 4, 2019 #13

    Col. Batguano

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    It's a beautiful and historic coin. I had much the same idea once, though with the Liberty Bell portion of the Franklin half-dollar. My thought was to use a jeweler's saw to cut it out, and just inlay the bell part, with a sterling banner above it engraved with the word "Liberty" as a cheek piece insert. The problem with that is, that it is almost impossible to get the inlay to the perfect height with the base plain wood without filing at least SOME on the metal itself. That, and bending the thick cut out shape to match the concave cheek piece would likely damage the cut out. ANY filing or pounding on the metal will remove or at least mar the raised effect from the coin. So the net result is that you are far more likely to pull it off tastefully if you inlay plain sterling silver sheet metal, and then tastefully engrave it than you are to be able to pull off what you are proposing.

    So maybe if you get to be super-duper good you might be able to pull it off, but I haven't done yet on the pages of THIS forum.
     
  14. Jun 4, 2019 #14

    Zonie

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    One of the things I've always wondered about is, yes, many of the Pennsylvania rifles had religious inlays on them but I have never seen a Christian cross.

    The "heart" or "bleeding heart" of Jesus, the dove, and the fish were rather common on these guns but the cross seems to be oddly missing.
     
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  15. Jun 4, 2019 #15

    Bootz

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    Zonie, That's a fascinating observation. I'm not an authority by any definition but will throw this out there. The church in colonial time was very different from what we see today. The crucifix was largely associated with the catholic church and they weren't too popular with the protestants on this side of the 18th century pond. Additionally, the cross was perceived to be a glorification of a horrible murder and the other symbols we see were seen as honoring the love, the hope and the promise. Just an old guy's thoughts.
     
  16. Jun 4, 2019 #16

    dave_person

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    Hi Zonie,
    I am not sure that even weeping hearts and fish were necessarily Christian symbols and even those don't really become somewhat popular until the late flint/percussion period. It may be that they took on that meaning after the second great awakening during the early 19th century, although you don't see any similar adoption after the earlier Great Awakening in the 18th century. The weeping heart symbol is also a symbol of Scotland and may also actually be a linden leaf rather than a heart. You would think that if the owners or makers were openly religious as encouraged by the various "awakenings" they would simply use a cross. Crosses on guns is mostly a late 20th century thing. In fact, I encounter more Masonic symbols on original long rifles than overt Christian ones.

    dave
     
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  17. Jun 5, 2019 #17

    Sidney Smith

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    No gun built today can really be considered PC HC if you really come down to it. Modern steels machine cut sticks etc. It's your gun so do with it as you like.

    When I build a muzzle loader I never think or care what others may think about it. My gun my effort m6 control.
     
  18. Jun 5, 2019 #18

    dave_person

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    Hi Sidney,
    That is the old straw man argument. If you didn't weld the barrel, use candle light, avoid power tools, etc, you can't be historically correct so why bother. You can absolutely make your gun appear correct for the time and represent the workmanship, styles, decoration, and details so that when examined it looks like the originals as far as you can. Of course there are many modern builders who don't care or know how to do that. Many of my guns, if you aged them, you could put behind glass with originals and they would fit right in. When I am making guns for living history participants, I make damn sure they look like examples of work from the appropriate time period despite modern barrels, locks, and power tools, and lights, etc, etc, etc. I applaud Bootz for checking and asking about historical relevance and accuracy.

    dave
     
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  19. Jun 6, 2019 #19

    Sidney Smith

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    I applaud the man as well, however for a first build, better to be more concerned with doing a decent job of it, to get a functional firearm that was enjoyable to accomplish. IMO worrying about PC/ HC could lead to undue frustration which could in and of itself lead to someone throwing in the towel. He's going to have enough on his plate just getting things put together properly. He doesn't need the added burden of whether or not the gun looks PC OR HC.
     
  20. Jun 6, 2019 #20

    Brokennock

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    The o.p. did ask for pc/hc advice, so, it matters to him. If it matters to him, it is important. He didn't ask if he should make his Colonial model rifle pc/hc. He asked if some additions he is thinking of will ruin the hc/pc aspects of his Colonial rifle build.
     
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