First black powder rifle, headed to the range.

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Mooney 78865

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So another "Newbie" question. I have made rolled cartridges twice now. The first time while waiting for things to finish drying and what not while I was building the rifle, and again today. The first 25 rounds I rolled I pan lubed the rounds. Today I "hot dipped" the rounds. I defiantly like the Hot Dipped method much better. But, how much is too much lube? Is one dip enough? Double dip? Three dips seems like over kill, which of course is what I did. I have the feeling that I am over lubing the rounds. Pan lubing is a bit of a mess and the sleeve I use to remove the rounds from the pan leaves a lot to be desired. The second time I went out to shoot I didn't use rolled cartridges and loaded out of the measure, then placed the round down the barrel. THAT was a mess. I had lube all over the rifle, me, the table, powder measure, everything. It does make it convenient when changing powder charges, but man! Is it acceptable to just dip the round once? Does that provide enough lube? I did learn a couple things with all the lube though. Beeswax will come up with mineral spirits, (off the stock and everywhere else I laid my hands) and I have NO trouble cleaning the barrel with soap and water!
 

Stantheman86

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I watched his comparison of two 2 band "Enfield's" today. He does provide a prospective of to expect. I guess I need to take into account that we are shooting "iron" sights and not scopes. His explanation of powder charges, for me is pretty insightful.
I expect too much, basically, when I shoot and if I'm not putting them on top of each other at 100 I feel like something is wrong.

20201124_140644.jpg


I ended a range trip with my Parker Hale P53 with these two shots from 100, I aimed at the "waist" and I was so proud of myself :)

I'm like , I'm done for the day now I'm not ruining this 2 shot group
 

Mooney 78865

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The US pattern of paper cartridges were simplified throughout the years, I tried making the 1855 Pattern with the separate powder tube paper inside and they were easier to load, crack the cartridge on the muzzle and take the Minie out. Just too time consuming to make so if do feel like making cartridges, I make the simplified 1863 version. They're easier to carry to the range and I feel more authentic using them. When I finally clean up my original 1861 Springfields I kinda feel like I'll be obligated to bring 40 cartridges in a cartridge box to shoot them or I'm not living right.
I'm making the simplified 1863 version....
 

Stantheman86

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So another "Newbie" question. I have made rolled cartridges twice now. The first time while waiting for things to finish drying and what not while I was building the rifle, and again today. The first 25 rounds I rolled I pan lubed the rounds. Today I "hot dipped" the rounds. I defiantly like the Hot Dipped method much better. But, how much is too much lube? Is one dip enough? Double dip? Three dips seems like over kill, which of course is what I did. I have the feeling that I am over lubing the rounds. Pan lubing is a bit of a mess and the sleeve I use to remove the rounds from the pan leaves a lot to be desired. The second time I went out to shoot I didn't use rolled cartridges and loaded out of the measure, then placed the round down the barrel. THAT was a mess. I had lube all over the rifle, me, the table, powder measure, everything. It does make it convenient when changing powder charges, but man! Is it acceptable to just dip the round once? Does that provide enough lube? I did learn a couple things with all the lube though. Beeswax will come up with mineral spirits, (off the stock and everywhere else I laid my hands) and I have NO trouble cleaning the barrel with soap and water!
I hot dip them in SPG melted in a pyrex bowl on a cheap candle warmer. Then I push them through a .575 sizer which sizes them and strips off the excess lube, leaving it neatly in the grooves like its supposed to be
 

Mooney 78865

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I expect too much, basically, when I shoot and if I'm not putting them on top of each other at 100 I feel like something is wrong.

View attachment 86038

I ended a range trip with my Parker Hale P53 with these two shots from 100, I aimed at the "waist" and I was so proud of myself :)

I'm like , I'm done for the day now I'm not ruining this 2 shot group
Haha! That was me Sunday!
 

Mooney 78865

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I hot dip them in SPG melted in a pyrex bowl on a cheap candle warmer. Then I push them through a .575 sizer which sizes them and strips off the excess lube, leaving it neatly in the grooves like its supposed to be
S*&t! Didn't think of lubing then sizing. Hate being new...
 

Stantheman86

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S*&t! Didn't think of lubing then sizing. Hate being new...
My setup is cheap and easy , I bought a .575 push thru sizer, got an Arbor Press from Harbor Freight, I hot dip them with surgical forceps and put them in a small frying pan. Once I hot dip as many as I need I use the Arbor Press to push them through the sizer with a wooden dowel.

Pedersoli makes a Minie Sizer, I have one but I had to lay my body weight on it to push the bullets through and I can never find the "Minie Luber" they used to sell.

It takes a little bit of time to do all this then roll them into cartridges, like basically an entire night so it's not something I just do for every range trip.

I bought little glass bottles with metal screw tops off Ebay that hold exactly 60 gr of powder, that are way easier to fill 50 of them up, and just lube and size bullets . I bought little wooden boxes to hold the Minies so it's like an historically correct target shooter setup. For some reason it only feels "right" with British rifles like my Enfield 3-bander. I don't know I get particular about this crap
 

Mooney 78865

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It is time consuming rolling them. I'll have to try running them through the sizer next batch.
 

Stantheman86

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Sizing is critical , before I knew what I was doing I got one stuck in the bore of a Zoli Buffalo Hunter
 

dave951

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I watched his comparison of two 2 band "Enfield's" today. He does provide a prospective of to expect. I guess I need to take into account that we are shooting "iron" sights and not scopes. His explanation of powder charges, for me is pretty insightful.
I'll add one more thing to this. Modern shooters have gotten "soft" shooting with scopes. The art and technique of shooting "irons" is not a common thing anymore and it shows. Past that, when shooting a muzzleloader, fundamentals and technique are everything. Get those right and a muzzleloader gives up nothing in the accuracy dept. Get those wrong, and you'll swear the gun isn't capable of hitting anything and the only thing wrong is the loose nut behind the stock.
 

Stantheman86

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I'll add one more thing to this. Modern shooters have gotten "soft" shooting with scopes. The art and technique of shooting "irons" is not a common thing anymore and it shows. Past that, when shooting a muzzleloader, fundamentals and technique are everything. Get those right and a muzzleloader gives up nothing in the accuracy dept. Get those wrong, and you'll swear the gun isn't capable of hitting anything and the only thing wrong is the loose nut behind the stock.
I'm reading this book now and the author talks about Revolutionary War riflemen hitting an 8" target 20 times at 250 yards and a dollar coin at 60 yards to show their skills....with hand fitted flintlock small bore Long Rifles with crude notch and blade sights . If that's not "knowing your rifle " I don't know what is. Most people can't do that with a modern scoped hunting rifle.
 

springfield art

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I bought a Traditions 1853 Enfield kit a few weeks ago and did a small thread in the "builders" portion of the forum detailing my experience.
It is now time to take it to the range and give it a go. I purchased some .575 minie rounds from TOW that arrived yesterday. Sized them, lubed them, and made cartridges with 60 grains of FFG. I have on their way more .575 as well as .577 to try.
I figure setting up at 50 yards for starters to get a feel on where it is shooting, then work back to 100 yards.
This will be my first time shooting a black powder rifle, although I have been shooting cap and ball pistols for 8-9 years.
I've done a bunch of research here and on other forums, and wanted to see if anyone had anything specific they could share. View attachment 84520View attachment 84521View attachment 84522
Someone will surely come up with a recipe for staining stocks with Guiness! :)
 

TFoley

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Agreed, I've watched Hickok45 as well, Capandball.eu seems legit. I should look up more of his stuff.
Not certain what you mean by 'legit'. Of course he is 'legit'. He is the European organiser for the Muzzleloading Association International Committee [MLAIC] under who auspices all muzzleloading competitions are arranged and run worldwide.

Check out the 2019 comps held in Hungary on Youtube.
 

TFoley

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I think He's talking about using the US 1862 Expanding Ball musket cartridge, where the Burton-bullet is separated from the paper prior to loading. I hope the "wadding" he's talking about is the paper patching loaded with the bullet with the Pritchett style cartridge. Otherwise, he didn't realize that the Brits started updating their cartridge design when the 1851 rifle-musket was adopted (unlikely).
Read the book 'The English Cartridge' and you'll find out that is exactly what they did. Using the bullet co-designed by Metford, it was that very British bullet that laid the Russian low in the their thousands at the Battle of Inkerman in 1854.
 

TFoley

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My setup is cheap and easy , I bought a .575 push thru sizer, got an Arbor Press from Harbor Freight, I hot dip them with surgical forceps and put them in a small frying pan. Once I hot dip as many as I need I use the Arbor Press to push them through the sizer with a wooden dowel.
Where did you get the sizer?
 

TFoley

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Last week before going out for the first time I had no idea what to expect as to accuracy or what not. Part of the intrigue about the whole process of owning and shooting a black powder rifle was everything associated with it. From casting bullets, rolling cartridges, adjusting powder load, the whole gambit.
My wife and I spent 2 months on the road this spring in the motorhome. One of the places we visited was Gettysburg. I was intrigued by the re enactors we met at the museum. Had a long conversation with one of them that sort of peaked my interest. Couple that with having just retired, well, one thing led to another and here I am.

What I have noticed so far is that there is little difference between the Parker Hale .577 rounds and the Rapine .577 rounds as far as grouping at 50 yards with 60 grains of Pyrodex. There is a noticeable difference with the .575 Rapine rounds. They don't group as well, which seems to support the barrel diameter I got of .578. My thought is I will purchase a mold for the .577 Rapine style which will of course mean I will need everything else needed to cast my own rounds. I have already made cartridges and am here to tell you it is a lot cleaner and a whole lot less hassle loading. I went out the second time with loose lubed rounds so I could adjust the powder load. Yeah, I like the paper cartridges much better!
Hopefully, in the next couple weeks I will have an abundance of powder and the ability to cast my own rounds.
Dump the Pyrodex and shoot good old black powder. 60gr of Pyrodex equals almost 70gr of BP, BTW.
 
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Read the book 'The English Cartridge' and you'll find out that is exactly what they did. Using the bullet co-designed by Metford, it was that very British bullet that laid the Russian low in the their thousands at the Battle of Inkerman in 1854.
yah, they redesigned the cartridge (actually, several times), I wasn't saying they didn't. My comment was trying to make sense of the statement about wadding in British rifle-musket cartridges.
 

45man

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Very interesting though I never owned a Minie" shooter, but I helped friends with Enfields. One notable one would not hit a 4 foot by 4 foot cardboard at 50 yards. I found depending on skirt expansion was not enough so I lapped his mold so the rifling engraved the entire Minie".
He was able to ring the 200 meter gong off hand every shot. He used 50 gr of FFG and it took a long time to reach 200. I shot once and turned away, took a few steps towards the bench when we heard it hit.
 
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