Experimental Muzzle-loading Percussion Rifle??

Discussion in 'Forum Announcements & Support' started by ResearchPress, Feb 14, 2020 at 6:56 PM.

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  1. Feb 14, 2020 at 6:56 PM #1

    ResearchPress

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    Disappointed to see the above thread in ‘Firearms Identification’ closed because it discusses an in-line arm.

    The only relevant rule I see is:
    7: We do not discuss modern (in-line) muzzleloading firearms.

    The rifle looked to me to be an interesting original arm and not modern, so am curious why relevant on topic discussion of a historical firearm has been closed. What have I missed?

    David
     
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  2. Feb 14, 2020 at 9:15 PM #2

    Carbon 6

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    Been a lot of disappointment in rule interpretation lately.
    I think the word "experimental" gives some a perception of modernity.

    Doesn't quite seem right considering it is an original period gun. After all period paper cartridge breech loaders were allowed.

    I suspect the rule will soon be revised to align with the moderator's decision.
    It's going to take them a long time to close all the past discussions of period correct guns like this one.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Feb 14, 2020 at 10:12 PM #3

    hawkeye2

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    It's unfortunate that it carries the in-line stigma and that ends all discussion. Not all in-lines are stainless and plastic nor were they all manufactured in the last 50 years on modern machinery. While not common there exist in-line flintlock guns from the 1700s and early 1800s. I know for a fact the gun in the photos above is an original in-line from the 1800s and it's my opinion the one in recent Firearms Identification forum is also an 1800s vintage gun (an extremely interesting one too). I feel we should be free to discuss any firearm or accurate replicas thereof produced within the time constraints of this forum regardless of the location or type of ignition system. They are, after all, a part of muzzleloading history.
     
  4. Feb 14, 2020 at 11:02 PM #4

    Zonie

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    You all make valid points.
    The rifle is not a modern design and although it is an in-line gun, it is far from the types of guns rule 7 is intended to address so, I am reopening the thread for further discussion.

    As for the comment, "Been a lot of disappointment in rule interpretation lately.", I don't expect everyone to agree with my interpretations of the rules. In fact, I would be surprised if 100% of the members agree with me on any issue.
     
  5. Feb 15, 2020 at 1:14 AM #5

    Carbon 6

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    I take much solace in knowing that some of your "interpretations" are agreeable.
    Especially this one. :thumb:
     
  6. Feb 15, 2020 at 2:12 AM #6

    hawkeye2

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    Thanks Zonie, and BTW I think I agree with you 98% of the time.
     
  7. Feb 15, 2020 at 6:46 AM #7

    ResearchPress

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    Thanks for your consideration and response.

    David
     
  8. Feb 15, 2020 at 12:00 PM #8

    Griz44Mag

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    Hey guys,
    If you have ever moderated a busy forum, you might understand better.
    It's not an easy job, and you can get blasted by both sides for every issue.
    I have had a couple of my posts edited/removed, and although I gritted my teeth and asked myself "why?", deep down I understood why already.
    This is one of the most civil and well managed forums I am on or have been on.
     
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  9. Feb 16, 2020 at 1:37 AM #9

    smo

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    OK .... I’ll agree with Zonie the other 2% of the time.

    So we’re all in total agreement now.
     
  10. Feb 16, 2020 at 4:07 PM #10

    zimmerstutzen

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    Thirty years ago, I had some time to kill in Alexandria VA, so I went to the US Patent office and leafed through the firearm patent applications filed from 1800 to 1825. I was so enthralled by the various designs, that I missed the lights blinking to signal closing time and had a security guard scare the heck out of me as I was still sifting through patents an hour after closing. What was imagined back then was truly amazing, even by modern standards. I find it odd that when the nipple is in the same axis as the baore, it is an evil despicable thing, but when it is perpendicular to the bore as an underhammer, it goes off just as fast by injecting flame directly into the charge, but it is ok as old. The same can be said of a mule ear system with the nipple screwed into the bore perpendicularly on the side instead of the bottom. Last we have those little derringers with a box lock hammer that strikes nipple screwed into the top of the barrel. Most cap and ball revolvers are in-lines. Some civil war carbines were in-lines. I realize there must be a cut off somewhere. I once had a Wurfflein zimmerstutzen made in Philadelphia from the 1850's that used a box lock hammer to strike a rod which in turn struck a cap on a nipple that was in line with the bore. Such zimmerstutzen parlor guns had been constructed since the 1830's, but used a standard side lock to strike the rod that struck an cap on an inline nipple. The first of Snyder's English patents in the 1830's for his breech loader used an in-line ignition system with a serrated needle that pierced and ignited match head material to light the charge. We ignore too much of the evolution of firearms when we cut off a historically period correct design instead of using a date or event cut off.
     
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  11. Feb 16, 2020 at 4:31 PM #11

    Carbon 6

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    :thumb:
     
  12. Feb 16, 2020 at 4:40 PM #12

    tenngun

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    I think Zoni has been good about reignighting some threads that were still important to contributors.
    Hard and fast rules will always have some grey areas.
    Technically a Colt is an in-line and a Hall is a muzzleloader...
     
  13. Feb 16, 2020 at 4:55 PM #13

    Zonie

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    As you might have noticed, I reopened the thread that is the subject of this topic.

    For those who don't know about some of the history on the Muzzleloading forum, there was a time when discussions about all forms of muzzleloaders and types of bullets was allowed.
    It didn't take long before a war between the people who buy modern bolt action and break open muzzleloaders and traditional muzzleloaders broke out.
    Hunters on both sides of the issue were mainly involved but even some non-hunters on both sides joined into the fray.

    That is when Claude, who started and owned the MLF, decided enough is enough. Discussions about modern types of muzzleloaders and the bullets they usually shoot would be banned on the forum. This led to the addition of several rules and a large number of our members who shoot the modern guns left the forum.

    Fast forwarding to today, we still have a number of traditional hunters on the forum who have very strong dislikes for the modern muzzleloaders and the people who shoot them.
    Many of them ignore the fact that in-lines have been in existence much earlier than the 1865 cutoff date the forum uses for the types of firearms we can discuss and when they see one of the in-line guns, they bombard me with complaints. This leaves me sort of 'gun shy' and when I see a topic about guns that use the in-line design I try to head off the complaints by closing the subject.


    Figuring out which guns are "traditional" in-line guns and which ones are not gets a little difficult but I may change the way I look at them based on whether they are based on a metallic cartridge or shot shell gun or they are typical of the earlier designs. For instance, I consider muzzleloaders based on the H&R Topper and bolt action guns to be cartridge based so they would still be off limits.

    For what it's worth, I also don't allow pistols that look like M1911 semi-auto's with a flintlock installed on them.

    Sometimes, moderatin' ain't easy.
     
  14. Feb 16, 2020 at 5:33 PM #14

    Angie

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  15. Feb 16, 2020 at 6:03 PM #15

    Shooter1

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    Looks like under hammer with hammer in backwards. Old
     
  16. Feb 16, 2020 at 6:33 PM #16

    Smokey Plainsman

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    Ned Roberts in his writings discusses inline target rifles using shotgun primers.

    This is concerning guns from the late 19th century.

    Not a new idea, but probably outside the scope of this forum. I know from conversing with the moderators, late (1880s-1920s) percussion rifle history is frowned upon, and depending on who woke up on what side of the bed that day, forbidden.

    It’s a shame we don’t have a good place to discuss this part of firearms history without fears of getting shut down. It seems SOME (not mentioning any names or specifics) aren’t satisfied a gun is “traditional” unless it’s a flintlock and preferably before the year 1800? Seems that way to me.
     
  17. Feb 16, 2020 at 7:25 PM #17

    Rudyard

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    In New Zealand there are no closed seasons for introduced Large game like deer. So the need for inline modern affairs dosn't arrise . I use Ml,,s flint & cap or earlier on whim .So the inline has no need to be and I've not heard of one used here .No reason for it. I see them as cheating & repulsive but then I am a bit of a purist .Zonie's decision is sound the adage 'Thiers nothing new under the sun ' has some truth. I can see where some designes never caught on but full marks for effort .
    Regards Rudyard
     
  18. Feb 16, 2020 at 9:00 PM #18

    Carbon 6

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    Sounds like heaven. :D
     
  19. Feb 16, 2020 at 9:24 PM #19

    zimmerstutzen

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    I posted a thread about metal spinning a few years ago. Something that was done by Ancient Egyptians as well as Paul Revere, yet the thread was shut down as modern.
     
  20. Feb 16, 2020 at 10:20 PM #20

    Zonie

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    We do have such a place.
    Pay the fee to become a MLF Supporter and you can post about the guns you mention or even modern cartridge guns or just about anything else. There is also a forum there to talk about the 2nd Amendment issues and one for discussing politics.

    As for complaints about other posts that a Moderator or Administrator has closed, this is not the place for them.
     

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