Experimental Muzzle-loading Percussion Rifle??

Discussion in 'Firearm Identification' started by tanegashima_remington, Feb 13, 2020.

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  1. Feb 13, 2020 #1

    tanegashima_remington

    tanegashima_remington

    tanegashima_remington

    32 Cal

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    Hi guys,

    Here is a peculiar example of experimental muzzle-loading percussion rifle.
    1.jpg
    2.jpg

    Unlike common muzzle-loaders, the gun has its percussion nipple in the center of its receiver end.
    3.JPG

    Another distinctive feature of the gun is grip safety lever on the upper tang.
    5.jpg
    We need to securely grasp the lever when pulling the trigger.
    In order to avoid blowback of combustion gas from the percussion nipple, the hammer is locked in the forward position while the safety lever is held.

    When disassembling the gun, the action-mechanism can be detached from the stock by unscrewing two knobs on each end of trigger-guard.
    4.JPG

    The barrel is secured to the stock with barrel bands. So, the barrel and the action can be detached from the stock without using any tools.

    The gun’s rear sight is flip-type and has three sight leaves for different range.
    6.JPG

    The gun has a marking which can be read as “MORAV” or “MORAY” under the barrel and also a proof marking of “crown” and “M”.
    7.jpg

    When I bought this gun, they told me that the gun is Swiss made.
    However, most Swiss guns don’t have crown proof marking on them, and now I have no idea where and by whom the gun was manufactured.
    The gun is made in superb quality and looks like French made. Its buttstock has Tyrolean-type shoulder rest.

    I hope someone has more information about the gun…??
     

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    ResearchPress, cositrike and Woodnbow like this.
  2. Feb 13, 2020 #2

    F.G. Ford

    F.G. Ford

    F.G. Ford

    62 Cal. MLF Supporter

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    Hi,
    It certainly gives credit to the early foundation of an inline rifle??!! Or should I say an unmentionable.
    It is an intriguing design, somewhat military by appearance.
    Does not look to be American.
    You would want to have your shooting glasses on to shoot that sucker!
    Fred
     
  3. Feb 13, 2020 #3

    fleener

    fleener

    fleener

    50 Cal.

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    Very neat rifle. What cal. and twist?

    Fleener
     
  4. Feb 13, 2020 #4

    Woodnbow

    Woodnbow

    Woodnbow

    45 Cal.

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    Beautiful piece. I’ll be watching the thread for any information the members can provide.
     
  5. Feb 13, 2020 #5

    poker

    poker

    poker

    40 Cal MLF Supporter

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    Very nice piece there. Like Fred says, it’s an inline, probably someones prototype that didn’t make it to production. Back in the 80’s and 90’s there were lots of startups all trying to compete in the low priced arena. It took too much money to build the better designs, so they generally werent built or if they were, not for long.
     
  6. Feb 13, 2020 #6

    TFoley

    TFoley

    TFoley

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    IBTL. NO Swiss arms use a crown as part of their proof marks. The use of a crown implies a 'royal' armoury or proof house. Switzerland has neither.
     
  7. Feb 13, 2020 #7

    cositrike

    cositrike

    cositrike

    40 Cal.

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    J.B. Barrett (for the confederacy) built a similar rifle , using captured Hall breech loading barrels converted to muzzle loading
     
  8. Feb 13, 2020 #8

    Zonie

    Zonie

    Zonie

    Moderator Staff Member MLF Supporter

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    I consider this rifle to be an "in-line". Discussions about in-line guns are prohibited in the forum rules so, I'm locking this thread.
     
  9. Feb 14, 2020 #9

    Zonie

    Zonie

    Zonie

    Moderator Staff Member MLF Supporter

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    After several comments concerning this thread which pointed out that the gun appearently does fit into the time period the forum rules require, I have reconsidered my previous decision and reopened the thread for further discussion.
     
    cositrike and ResearchPress like this.
  10. Feb 15, 2020 #10

    cositrike

    cositrike

    cositrike

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    529FC884-D94E-4F1E-8F9F-1DCD1B4C0CEB.jpeg 4065CC54-EC71-4735-A066-86D449F1B96C.jpeg 3E64C187-9988-4872-934C-7FF25D865123.jpeg
     
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  11. Feb 16, 2020 #11

    tanegashima_remington

    tanegashima_remington

    tanegashima_remington

    32 Cal

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    Hi all,

    Thank you for your interest in this gun.
    I'm happy to hear that this topic is reopened.

    The barrel of the gun is .51 Cal (13mm) bore with five grooves of rifling, equipped with a bayonet-lug. So, I too think it is experimentally manufactured for military use.

    I found a website talking about "MORAY", a gunsmith in Belgium.

    http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies m/a moray gb.htm

    Belgian gunmakers usually stamped a "crown" and an initial of their company name, like the one found on this experimental rifle.

    However, I'm still looking for definitive information supporting that this experimental gun was made by this Belgian gunsmith.
     
    cositrike likes this.
  12. Feb 16, 2020 #12

    tanegashima_remington

    tanegashima_remington

    tanegashima_remington

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    I guess "MORAY D. LIEGE (1875-1887)" on the website would have made this experimental muzzle-loading rifle and exported it to Swiss for trial.
    In the late 19th century, many guns made in Belgium were exported to Switzerland. We often find "crown+initial" stamps on these guns.
    This experimental gun too has some features of Swiss military rifles. (e.g. Tyrolean-type stock).
     
    cositrike likes this.
  13. Feb 16, 2020 #13

    TFoley

    TFoley

    TFoley

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    I guess I'm being particularly obtuse this morning, or maybe just plain stoopid, but I'm STILL looking for any connection whatsoever between this rifle and Switzerland - place that has shown itself quite capable itself of designing it's own firearms, or, in the case of the Vitali, adapting it for their needs.
     
  14. Feb 16, 2020 #14

    waarp8nt

    waarp8nt

    waarp8nt

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    Location:
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    http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

    ^^^ The above link will take your directly to the NRA pdf file on proof marks. It may be handy to confirm the country of origin, however I have a pistol that was built in Belgium, but proofed in Birmingham, England. So, just because it was proofed in a specific country may not always mean that is the country of origin. However, in my opinion it certainly provides some historical value as to the travels of a particular weapon. I found the link useful enough to download it on my P.C. and my cell phone.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
  15. Feb 16, 2020 #15

    Woodnbow

    Woodnbow

    Woodnbow

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    Intriguing design, if the hammer was properly constructed with a deep recess in its face it should keep the shooter safe from cap fragments. Combined with the action of the grip safety, looks like a strong, safe design. You’re very fortunate to have found it. Do you plan to shoot it?
     

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