Escopeta anyone?

Help Support Muzzle Loading Forum:

Peter Stines

Pilgrim
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Messages
58
Reaction score
35
If you are interested in Spanisg guns get copies of James Lavins book and Keith Neil. Long out of print but great stuff. Both have copies of maker's stamps and proof marks. The Brinkerhoff book is also first rate (and out of print) but expensive. Borrow it interlibrary loan and xerox or scan it.🕵️‍♂️
 

Peter Stines

Pilgrim
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Messages
58
Reaction score
35
The Spanish military used the miquelet lock up until about 1750 when it made the change to the French style flintlock.
But then changed back to the miquelet style lock about 1790. They felt the miquelet lock was stronger.

RickView attachment 57728
Is that an India made copy or Rifle Shoppe ? The Pedersoli is not correct. They just swopped parts off a 1766 Frenchie for semi correct Spanish.:thumb:
 

Notchy Bob

32 Cal.
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Messages
993
Reaction score
1,263
Location
Florida
If you are interested in Spanisg guns get copies of James Lavins book and Keith Neil. Long out of print but great stuff. Both have copies of maker's stamps and proof marks. The Brinkerhoff book is also first rate (and out of print) but expensive. Borrow it interlibrary loan and xerox or scan it.🕵️‍♂️
Is that an India made copy or Rifle Shoppe ? The Pedersoli is not correct. They just swopped parts off a 1766 Frenchie for semi correct Spanish.:thumb:

I can't say for sure about Rick's musket, but there was a limited run of Spanish M1757 muskets made in Spain in 1976, in honor of our bicentennial, and shipped over here. I don't know how they were allocated or distributed, but they had one at the Castillo in St. Augustine when I attended "the School of the Soldier" there a few years ago. I handled it. The musket was a very nice-looking and accurate reproduction, but it was my understanding that it had a few functional problems. That, and it's rarity, made it more of a collector piece than a shooter. Maybe Rick has one of those, although it might be one of the Rifle Shoppe parts sets, skillfully assembled. Maybe he'll tell us!

I have not handled the Pedersoli "Spanish" musket, but I did meet the owner of one, who said a little about it. Pedersoli evidently used their Charleville musket as a platform. They modified the markings on the lock, added a big ring to the top jaw screw, and modified the triggerguard with the lower sling swivel. The original M1757 had brass mountings, but I was advised that Pedersoli used steel and applied a brass-colored "powder coat" to those parts which were brass on the original. So, the Pedersoli Spanish musket pays homage to the M1757, but it is not an accurate replica.

I have a copy of James Levy's book on guns of the Spanish Main. Is that the one that was referenced, maybe? I also bought a copy of the Brinckerhoff book quite a while back. It should really be reprinted. I agree with tenngun, who said Spanish guns are under-represented, despite the fact that threads like this generate a lot of interest.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
 

Rudyard

50 Cal.
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
1,218
Reaction score
914
That Catalan style butt is ugly but it needn't be. Rifled Spanish guns where extremely rare until the percussion era .
Rudyard
 

kje54

54 Cal.
MLF Supporter
Joined
Aug 22, 2020
Messages
1,566
Reaction score
1,612
Location
Duke City
I can't say for sure about Rick's musket, but there was a limited run of Spanish M1757 muskets made in Spain in 1976, in honor of our bicentennial, and shipped over here. I don't know how they were allocated or distributed, but they had one at the Castillo in St. Augustine when I attended "the School of the Soldier" there a few years ago. I handled it. The musket was a very nice-looking and accurate reproduction, but it was my understanding that it had a few functional problems. That, and it's rarity, made it more of a collector piece than a shooter. Maybe Rick has one of those, although it might be one of the Rifle Shoppe parts sets, skillfully assembled. Maybe he'll tell us!

I have not handled the Pedersoli "Spanish" musket, but I did meet the owner of one, who said a little about it. Pedersoli evidently used their Charleville musket as a platform. They modified the markings on the lock, added a big ring to the top jaw screw, and modified the triggerguard with the lower sling swivel. The original M1757 had brass mountings, but I was advised that Pedersoli used steel and applied a brass-colored "powder coat" to those parts which were brass on the original. So, the Pedersoli Spanish musket pays homage to the M1757, but it is not an accurate replica.

I have a copy of James Levy's book on guns of the Spanish Main. Is that the one that was referenced, maybe? I also bought a copy of the Brinckerhoff book quite a while back. It should really be reprinted. I agree with tenngun, who said Spanish guns are under-represented, despite the fact that threads like this generate a lot of interest.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
Veteran Arms has an early 1700s Spanish Miquelet musket for sale.

 

Flint62Smoothie

50 Cal.
Joined
Dec 30, 2004
Messages
1,882
Reaction score
243
Location
NE Mass
I am pretty sure this is the painting in question:
Thank you so much for all the info you shared!

When you shoulder that how does it point. Naturally or do you find yourself making lots of adjustments?
It actually cheeks and points EXTREMELY well, so natural! And I’m a fan of the buttstock … no extra wood where it isn’t needed … just don’t go clubbing someone with it, haha!

All - For now I’ll leave the caliber ‘as is’. Thanks for the comments and kind words!

Less a doglock (but I may convert a blunderbuss to a doglock ... ) I now have at least 1 shootable black powdah arm of every major ignition type/design from the earliest hand gonne up to the 1st-issued percussion rifle - the inline, breech-loading Hall rifle, then only 1 sole 'cap' gun from the US War of Norhtern Aggression, LOL.
 

Notchy Bob

32 Cal.
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Messages
993
Reaction score
1,263
Location
Florida
Thank you, Peter Stines, for the lead on the Lavin book:

Lavin Book.jpg


I found a copy at a reasonable price and ordered it.

The American Society of Arms Collectors published a nice monograph on Spanish guns, with a discussion of miquelet locks: Some Spanish Weapons in the American Revolution. Well worth a look, if you are interested in that sort of thing.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
 

Peter Stines

Pilgrim
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Messages
58
Reaction score
35
I can't say for sure about Rick's musket, but there was a limited run of Spanish M1757 muskets made in Spain in 1976, in honor of our bicentennial, and shipped over here. I don't know how they were allocated or distributed, but they had one at the Castillo in St. Augustine when I attended "the School of the Soldier" there a few years ago. I handled it. The musket was a very nice-looking and accurate reproduction, but it was my understanding that it had a few functional problems. That, and it's rarity, made it more of a collector piece than a shooter. Maybe Rick has one of those, although it might be one of the Rifle Shoppe parts sets, skillfully assembled. Maybe he'll tell us!

I have not handled the Pedersoli "Spanish" musket, but I did meet the owner of one, who said a little about it. Pedersoli evidently used their Charleville musket as a platform. They modified the markings on the lock, added a big ring to the top jaw screw, and modified the triggerguard with the lower sling swivel. The original M1757 had brass mountings, but I was advised that Pedersoli used steel and applied a brass-colored "powder coat" to those parts which were brass on the original. So, the Pedersoli Spanish musket pays homage to the M1757, but it is not an accurate replica.

I have a copy of James Levy's book on guns of the Spanish Main. Is that the one that was referenced, maybe? I also bought a copy of the Brinckerhoff book quite a while back. It should really be reprinted. I agree with tenngun, who said Spanish guns are under-represented, despite the fact that threads like this generate a lot of interest.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
I saw one of those bicentennial Spanish muskets for sale on TOW website. Nice looking gun but it hadn't been fired. Even if it was not shootable it still would have made a nice display piece. Some of the original 1752/57 Spanish muskets had iron bands and others were brass. (Marine or sea service ?) And I think the early ones had wooden rammers. The later ones fitted with steel rods.
The shape of the Pedersoli copy is not right. It should look more like the French tulle muskets. The cock is incorrect; it should be a goose neck instead of the ringed neck. The lock plate should have the curve along the bottom, banana shaped like some of the French and German muskets. But its either buy that one and modify it or get the Rifle Shoppe version. Both pretty expensive. I talked to some of the staff at Castillo de San Marcos about their muskets. These were the India made copies. They had so many problems with the locks they sold them and bought Pedersolis.
 

Jim Wag

36 Cl.
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
92
Reaction score
82
Best use of an escopeta
Can be had chasing
Codorniz!

But this beauty is too fine to be knocking around the hills.

Jim in La Luz
😎
 
Last edited:

rickystl

58 Cal.
MLF Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2005
Messages
3,065
Reaction score
958
Hello again.

The musket in my photo is in fact one of the bicentennial copies made in Spain. Only a few were exported here to the U.S. during that time. With Navy Arms receiving just a few. I found this while attending the Antique Arms Show in Baltimore some 3/4 years ago. Of course, I immediately grabbed it. It was, and still is in unfired condition. The build quality is very high, and it's truly an exact copy of the 1757 original, even down to the original .71 caliber bore. I feel fortunate finding it. They are held in high regard and much sought after with Spanish reenactors.

The Levin book is excellent. It was always (and still probably is) considered the bible in Spanish guns of the period.
In fact, it was the only real resource until a couple other later books appeared.

Rick
1757 Spanish Musket 025 (Medium).JPG
1757 Spanish Musket 026 (Medium).JPG
 

rickystl

58 Cal.
MLF Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2005
Messages
3,065
Reaction score
958
That Catalan style butt is ugly but it needn't be. Rifled Spanish guns where extremely rare until the percussion era .
Rudyard
Hi Rudyard

You are right. Apparently, the Spanish (and Southern Italy that was controlled by Spain during this period) never found a use for rifled barrels in their long guns, military or sporting. The couple handfuls that do exist that are rifled were built with German or Turkish barrels on sporting guns. Just one of those cultural/gun curiosities.

Another curiosity: The barrels on their guns were almost always fastened with barrel bands. Both military and sporting. As Levin's book will attest, the pin fastened barrels date to about the early 17th Century or earlier.

Rick
 

Peter Stines

Pilgrim
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Messages
58
Reaction score
35
FWIW During the Texas Revolution there was a stockpile of Spanish 1750's muskets along with British India Pattern muskets in New Orleans.(probably 1812 plunder) The ship Hannah Elizabeth was dispatched to get these guns for the Texians. On the return trip the ship started leaking as it neared Pass Covallo and muskets were tossed overboard. A few years ago the ship and guns were found and divers recovered many of them. There was a website devoted to this but I can't remember the address. They had pictures and text. Maybe if you searched Hannah Elizabeth or Pass Covallo you could find.
 

Peter Stines

Pilgrim
Joined
Sep 6, 2012
Messages
58
Reaction score
35
Thank you, Peter Stines, for the lead on the Lavin book:

View attachment 57790

I found a copy at a reasonable price and ordered it.

The American Society of Arms Collectors published a nice monograph on Spanish guns, with a discussion of miquelet locks: Some Spanish Weapons in the American Revolution. Well worth a look, if you are interested in that sort of thing.

Best regards

Notchy Bob
Snag a copy of W.Keith Neil's book if you can. A GOLD MINE OF INFO!!!!
 

rickystl

58 Cal.
MLF Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2005
Messages
3,065
Reaction score
958
Speaking of escopetas, look what I was able to pick up recently........

Sometime in early December their was some discussion on miquelet locks on this Forum. Then, out of the clear blue, I receive a PM from a fellow forum member asking me if I would be interested in purchasing an escopeta kit before he posted it for sale. He had changed his mind on having it built. So I said: What do you have ? LOL Turns out he had a complete kit for TRS # 766 Spanish Light Military Escopeta. The kit was complete with everything - except the stock. Including an ASSEMBLED lock. And, he lived only an hour and a half away from me. So, we met that same day at a half-way point and made the exchange. I don't really need this gun but couldn't pass up the opportunity. LOL
So, I need to order just the stock from TRS. Hopefully it won't take too long since it is my understanding TRS does their own pre-carved stocks in-house now.
Then, of course, I have to find someone to assemble the kit. I know the perfect builder for this, but I don't know if I can talk him into it. I know he has been busy with wheellock stuff lately. We'll see.

Just dumb luck I ran into this. Especially with an assembled lock. YAY!!

Rick
001 (Medium).JPG
002 (Medium).JPG
003 (Medium).JPG
004 (Medium).JPG
 
Top