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English sporting rifle?

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rmerillat

Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
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I'm thinking about an English sporting rifle or so-called "Game gun", and would either have the Chambers kit finished or buy a finished Caywood. Can anyone comment about either?
 
I would go with the Chambers i like there parts.There English lock that thay use is real good.Don,t know anything about Caywood i called them one time about a rifle and thay were real rude don't need my doller.
 
29savoy said:
Can anyone comment about either?

Hi and welcome to the best ML list on the web

My most helpful comment is that it should be percussion :grin: :grin: :grin:

Normal Englishmen didn't shoot sporting rifles until rifle mania began when the French started to re-arm some time after after the Napoleonic War. If an Englisman insisted on an English rifle the maker usually imported a German barrel and copied the German style because no-one knew what an English sporting rifle was supposed to look like.

Englishmen used shotguns for fowling, everything else was hunted with horse and hound.

best regards

Squire Robin
 
I agree. 18th century English rifles were rare as hens' teeth, but they DID exist. The famous "Turvey" gun in "Rifles of Colonial America" is a prime example. It's basically a fowling gun but with a short rifled barrel.
 
J&W Clark made a "Factors rifle" circa 1780
John Clark Industries make a repro I think he is a direct desendent.
I've shoulded one and they are very well made and balance well.
 
One of my references mentions that English rifles weren't imported to the Colonies in any number until late in the French and Indian War. Colonial Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850, shows a couple on p. 160 and 161. They look pretty much the same as any other long rifle except the butt was shaped lot like the butt on a musket, with a ballestered wrist on one example and a paneled wrist on the other.
 
While it's true that the rifle craze didn't really kick into gear in Britain until the threat of invasion by Boney came about which prompted the numerous Volunteer Companies including volunteer riflemen, the rifle was made earlier by English gunsmiths and not surprisingly, according to the demands of their customers.
 
Trigger said:
One of my references mentions that English rifles weren't imported to the Colonies in any number until late in the French and Indian War. Colonial Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850, shows a couple on p. 160 and 161.

Who is the author and is that the exact title?
Tom Patton
 
"Kentucky Rifles and Pistols: 1750-1850"

These are (as I am learning) English rifles made for the Indian trade and PERHAPS (for the wood-box versions) go back as far as the 1760's. Most seem to be from the 1780's-1790's, though (especially since many have "Lancaster-type" daisy head brass boxes, or even the "tombstone" style box that is reminiscent of those on Baker and Brunswick rifles).

I had been asking about these guns on another board, and some folks were kind enough to send me some articles about them. These guns, however, do not have any real relation to what a typical English rifle would have been (assuming you could say that there even was a "typical" English rifle..). Again, the Turvey gun is as good an example as can be found, and the Rifle Shoppe has a parts set for a rifle by Griffin. The whole gun is not shown, but is described as being of ordinary English fowler form. The buttplate has a dovetail notch, so it had a wood box lid. (it was also nicely engraved and had a hooked breech).

As to the two "kits" in question...I have handled one of the Chambers kits EXPERTLY assembled by Bob Harn, and it is quite nice indeed. Actually, this very same gun was recently featured in an article on the Chambers kit, and Mr. Harn was not even mentioned.
 
I think I may opt to have a Chambers kit assembled. I've read a mix of good and not so good about Caywood on the board. Some years ago, I had an Isaac Haines rifle (Chambers kit) assembled by Mike Gahagan, and in my view, it was beautifully done. I may have him do this one.
 
Der Fett' Deutscher said:
These guns, however, do not have any real relation to what a typical English rifle would have been (assuming you could say that there even was a "typical" English rifle..).

Determined to find what was a typically English flint rifle I looked though Gus Swenson's excellent Pictorial History of the Rifle and counted...

2 military pieces
2 muzzle loaders
7 breech loaders
1 revolving 5 shooter

:hmm:
 
Have you ever seen an english flintlock rifle with a pistol grip? It seems that the flintlock should have overlapped the pistol grip era but I never found one.

This gun here is from Vienna and goes a little bit in that direction, but it is not a true pistol grip yet.

Missilieur%20Wien%201830.jpg
 
Okwaho said:
Trigger said:
One of my references mentions that English rifles weren't imported to the Colonies in any number until late in the French and Indian War. Colonial Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850, shows a couple on p. 160 and 161.

Who is the author and is that the exact title?
Tom Patton


I have been going thru my stuff but I can't find where I read that. I have a couple of references on English rifles. They show very few examples of sporting rifles pre dating the Revolutionary war. In fact, examples of american made rifles from before the Revolutionary war are also scarce.
 
The semi-pistolgrip shown above is in imitation of French style, beginning sometime in the late 18th century. Often, the "pistol grip" will be carved into animal heads. This is a style that actually persisted long into the 19th century.

Here's a French example from about 1800
French.jpg


here are 3 German ones (Mainz) in French style, also about 1800.
German.jpg
 
These are (as I am learning) English rifles made for the Indian trade and PERHAPS (for the wood-box versions) go back as far as the 1760's. Most seem to be from the 1780's-1790's, though (especially since many have "Lancaster-type" daisy head brass boxes, or even the "tombstone" style box that is reminiscent of those on Baker and Brunswick rifles).
These rifles were made ca. 1778-1783. The main contract was held by Wilson, and there is some speculation that Wilson sub contracted Grice and others to help fill the contract. All of the Grice guns that have been found have all had the two piece "Baker style" boxes. These brass boxed rifles were specifically contracted for and were slightly more expensive than the wood boxed guns.
These were all recieved by the Indian departments and distributed by them, Most probably as gifts or "alliance" guns. There were several thousand made. They were all made to a specific pattern and are all decorated with the exact same relief carving.
The two pieces pictured in "Kentucky rifles and pistols" have been badly reconverted to flint. The first one has the wrong style lock externals, and the second one unforunalty was reconverted to flint using a germanic styled lock. :shake:
 
Is it known how the english pistol grip evolved? It carries on the french style you showed and perfects the idea of having a grip right in the stock itself, so maybe there was an intermediate period or did it just suddenly appear?
 
I'm fairly sure there were English, pistol grip, flint shotguns. So maybe it didn't have to evolve, just migrate :thumbsup:
 
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