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English scalper

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Dan99

40 Cal
Joined
Aug 18, 2022
Messages
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Location
Coatesville, PA
I’m working on an English Scalper to sell… that with some help from my new friends here I have a better idea of what that is 😆
I used an old file, it’s overall length is 11” Beech Handle. Originally I planned on leaving some “file” texture to give it a little more character, but wanted some opinions… before I attach handle.
Thank you!
 

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If you are going for an 18th century period scalper, ditch the file lines.

Not only are they not period, they look unfinished, and add a source of friction to the cut. Leave the file marks and forge scale for "Joe Bag-o-Bushcraft."

Other than the file marks, that knife looks really good.

I wonder how many people who use a knife for a knife,,, and not a splitting wedge, entrenching tool, can opener and all around widget,, actually break their half tang knives? And if so, how often?
 
If you are going for an 18th century period scalper, ditch the file lines.

Not only are they not period, they look unfinished, and add a source of friction to the cut. Leave the file marks and forge scale for "Joe Bag-o-Bushcraft."

Other than the file marks, that knife looks really good.

I wonder how many people who use a knife for a knife,,, and not a splitting wedge, entrenching tool, can opener and all around widget,, actually break their half tang knives? And if so, how often?
Maybe I’ll do some testing/research and get back to you. Now I just need a list of what a knife in the 1700’s would be used for… I’ll start it with the things you just mentioned:

Can opener
Digging
Splitting wood (kindling unless we’re testing Buffalo Skinner)
 
Maybe I’ll do some testing/research and get back to you. Now I just need a list of what a knife in the 1700’s would be used for… I’ll start it with the things you just mentioned:

Can opener
Digging
Splitting wood (kindling unless we’re testing Buffalo Skinner)
Sounds more like a list they would not be used for.

No cans of Dinty More beef stew or peaches in syrup to open in the 18th century.
They had (and we still have) hatchets, axes, tomahawks, to split wood and bone.
I'm betting they were more likely to use the knife to carve a digging stick than to dig with the knife if they had no shovel or trowel available.

Knives would have been great for cutting rope, striping branches of smaller twigs and bark for various purposes, cutting hard cheese and dried meats and fruit as a trail food, cleaning game, processing primal cuts into final cuts, cutting material for a shelter, taking scalps.... all the stuff a knife is used for...
 
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Looks good so far! Half tang is period correct, so it is authentic. File marks: nope. Totally not historically correct, but hey, if you like them and don't care to be PC, leave them. I would not have them, myself.
 
A knife is was a tool. Nothing more or nothing less. If I was a poor farmer heading towards the frontier then my knife was basically the best knife in my homestead which more than likely was a butcher knife. So basically we can’t say for sure about the poor homesteaders that usually pushed west to help improve their families life about their choice in knives. They usually had no money or resources to buy something better than they already had at home that they made out of scrap metal to start with.
 
A knife is was a tool. Nothing more or nothing less. If I was a poor farmer heading towards the frontier then my knife was basically the best knife in my homestead which more than likely was a butcher knife. So basically we can’t say for sure about the poor homesteaders that usually pushed west to help improve their families life about their choice in knives. They usually had no money or resources to buy something better than they already had at home that they made out of scrap metal to start with.
What makes you think they made their knife out if "scrap metal?"

Trade knives were cheap as cheap could be and imported by the barrels full. Making one would have been a waste of time and energy.
 
What makes you think they made their knife out if "scrap metal?"

Trade knives were cheap as cheap could be and imported by the barrels full. Making one would have been a waste of time and energy.
Scrap metal could be anything repurposed from old wagon parts to horse shoes or anything that was originally made from metal. The area my family was from in WNC had stamp mills in the Hanging Dawg vicinity in the 1780’s -1800 time period. The Cherokee traded for this metal and many a gun barrel were made from this metal.
 
I think @Dan99 is working on an authentic reproduction of a trade scalper. Trade knives were made by professional cutlers in multiples, all to specified patterns. It is my understanding no one knife was made by one man. Some people were blacksmiths, who did the forging. The rough forged knives were then passed to people who did the finish grinding, and handles were installed by others. These knives were typically made in the urban manufacturing districts in Britain. They didn't really have mass production as we think of it now, yet knives like these were made in enormous quantities for export. I believe the blades would have been forged out of raw stock, rather than recycled materials. Even cheap knives coming out of those cutlery shops were ground smooth. So, the file teeth would not be authentic on a trade knife.

Handmade knives forged in the small frontier settlements were a whole different consideration. Recycled materials would have absolutely been used. Even old wagon tires and barrel hoops were made into cutlery. The result was a great variety of sizes, shapes, handle material, and quality of the finish work. These "primitive" knives make a fascinating field of study. But these were not trade knives.

There were comments about poor farmers. Bear in mind, Washington and Jefferson were farmers. They weren't all poor! Anyway, poor people in general tend to buy cheap stuff. Would it be cheaper to buy a "mass produced" imported knife for fifty cents from the local trader, or a custom handmade knife from the local blacksmith?

As for the half tang/full tang consideration, the half tang is authentic. That is how these old trade scalpers were made. If you want to make or use authentic gear, you have to ask yourself, "Do I want a better knife, or a more authentic one?" It doesn't really matter how much you might like some innovation, or how much you might want some undocumented gear to be authentic. If you want an authentic trade scalper, you want one with a half tang.

It is widely believed that a full tang is stronger than a half tang. I'm not sure that I agree. The weakest point on any knife is where the blade meets the handle, not out toward the butt.

I broke a knife one time. It was a simple, half-tang, wood handled hunting knife from Herters. I got it when I was twelve years old. I used it as a general purpose hunting/camping knife for half a century. I did some batoning with it, breaking up kindling, but only little stuff. I never tried opening cans with it! One day, while splitting a straight grained piece of pine kindling about the diameter of my thumb, the knife just broke off, about 1/8" inside the handle. The blade was intact, beyond the break, and the half tang was still solidly in place in the handle. Over years of use, the metal evidently became fatigued from the repeated stress at that fulcrum point, until that one day when it just gave up. It would not have made a bit of difference if the knife had had a full tang or half tang, because it broke where the blade met the handle.

@Dan99 requested opinions. He is making a copy of a professional cutler-produced trade knife, and not a knife that would have been hammered out of recycled metal by a frontier blacksmith in between shoeing horses and making nails. It should have a half tang, and the blade should be ground smooth. The pin-fastened slotted block handle is very appropriate, and beech was a very commonly used wood for handles on trade knives. The scalpers, more than other types, were also frequently hafted with red-colored tropical hardwoods. In Carl Russell's book, Firearms, Traps, and Tools of the Mountain Men, the author reported on an old scalping knife very similar to the one Dan is showing us. Some scrapings were taken from the wood handle and analyzed in a lab, which revealed it was East Indian Rosewood. So, there are some options in selecting authentic wood to use for the handle, but beech is a good choice, too.

That knife shows good research and good work. Nice job so far, Dan!

Notchy Bob
 
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Sounds more like a list they would not be used for.

No cans of Dinty More beef stew or peaches in syrup to open in the 18th century.
They had (and we still have) hatchets, axes, tomahawks, to split wood and bone.
I'm betting they were more likely to use the knife to carve a digging stick than to dig with the knife if they had no shovel or trowel available.

Knives would have been great for cutting rope, striping branches of smaller twigs and bark for various purposes, cutting hard cheese and dried meats and fruit as a trail food, cleaning game, processing primal cuts into final cuts, cutting material for a shelter, taking scalps.... all the stuff a knife is used for...
Why is a tang more likely to fail for being 1/2. Is not the pressure bearing point the same?
My thought was that the wood would be more likely to split, splinter or break then steel, but I personally haven’t done any testing or research.
 
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