English 16 guage SxS percussion shotgun

[Canuck Caster]

My shotgun is an original. I assume that it was built between 1840 (cuz it's percussion) and 1874 (cuz it has no choking). It doesn't have a maker's name on it but it looks a lot like a Scott. It has 32 inch browned barrels, a small amount of outline engraving and a delectable walnut stock. All furniture is browned steel save for a small plain silver medallion on the lower side of the wrist. I don't use it very much, because of it's age. I'm afraid of damaging it, because although it is in shootable condition, it's not perfect. Some pitting of the bores. It was kinda rusty inside when I bought it, but after much scrubbing with a copper bore brush and liberal amounts of Ed's Red, it's much better than it was. I had it checked out by a gunsmith before I fired it and he said it seemed safe to him. My initial test loads were fired over an old tire with a long string, just to be on the safe side. My question to you knowledgable types is whether or not this old shotgun would be a good candidate for a patched ball or buck 'n ball. I currently only load it with 1 ounce of shot, using the same measure for a load of FFg. Thanks in advance for your ideas. :hmm:

 

[Dave K]

Well if it is a 16ga. that means there are 16 round balls to the pound. So a rd. ball shot from it would be the same pressures as shooting 1oz. of shot. I would do it, but as in all old guns, I never want someone to say that I ok'd it. But again, if it were my gun, I would shoot it.I would also use the same powder charge.

 

If it handles shot OK, I'd use it with ball as well. Because it has less than perfect bores, I'd want to use a thick patch, so a .648" ball would be used(by me), and at least a .020" patch. The reason for the thick patch is to hold lots of lube as well as to make a snug fit with compression on the sides. Initially, I'd use spit, but Stumpy's mixture of Moose Snot works well in the Bess's and should work well in your 16 bore. I assume it has a .662" bore.

 

mmmm hard call , in theroy a round ball = to the same wieght of shot should not produce anymore pressure .
i would put it to you this way ,,, what is the shotgun worth to you ???
if that doesnt mater then i would say load it up and test it out with a RB just as you did with shot .
i would use more powder then you plan on using for a load , this will give you some room if for some reason you have a pressure spike .

 

[musketman]

I currently only load it with 1 ounce of shot, using the same measure for a load of FFg. Thanks in advance for your ideas. :hmm:

You could always use 1F (Fg) if you can find it...

Fg will produce less pressure that FFg...

I have shot my 1838 musket (.69 caliber) for many years, finally retired it after I got my Bess...

I used Fg in the .69 for the duration...

 

[Canuck Caster]

But doesn't a musket have heavier barrel walls than an English shotgun? These old shotguns have pretty thin walled tubes that they call barrels! My concern is that the patched roundball or buck and ball load would drive the pressure up higher than the normal shot over felt wad load. The patched roundball, while having the same mass as the shot load, would offer more initial friction to the expanding gases. Or am I mistaken here? ::

 

[Stumpkiller]

No. The friction is neglegible. If you can push it down, the powder can push it out. A collapsing and compressing 2" shot and wad column actually has much more surface contact and friction than a patched round ball, with maybe a 1/4" band of contact area. The inertia of the mass, which is about equal shot vs. ball, is the significant factor. The barrel walls of the musket are also thick to allow its use as a bayonet support, pike and club.

 

[Canuck Caster]

So it's considered normal to shoot a patched roundball out of an English double barrelled shotgun? Is that what the old timers did?

 

when you consider that alot of shot was chip shot and not round as we know it and lets also not forget many time they used whatever the could find , small rocks , seeds, nails .
you may also do a little research on the SXS what you find may surprise you as not everyone had long guns or smooth bores . I seem to recall reading somewhere about the number of different arms carried by militias and doubles where part of that number even at the Alamo as i recall.
so i would think the would have loaded RB or those folks would only have been useful at close range.

as i said before,,, proof your barrel for more then the load you are wanting to shoot .
on the double i just built for daisy i proofed the barrels to 180 grains of 2FF and 3 oz of shot so i felt safe in saying that he could double load it and she would hold together .
i would much rather find out the barrels wouldn

 

[musketman]

So it's considered normal to shoot a patched roundball out of an English double barrelled shotgun? Is that what the old timers did?

Yes, now the balls will cross over the line of sight path downrange, as both barrels are made to shoot to one spot...

However, this crossing wont happen if both barrels are true to the sight plain, but most doubles have the barrels slightly pointing in at the muzzles...

 

[Canuck Caster]

Thanks to all for their wisdom. I've not been able to find out a lot about muzzleloading shotguns, as there seems to be much more info out there about rifles and pistols, so this is a great place for me! I seem to remember miking the barrels at .660, so 10 under would be a .65 caliber ball. I'll double check the bores before I purchase ball for it. I'm a lot more at ease now about the prospect of shooting ball in this old girl. I have a .50 rifle as well, but it's a reproduction, I'd love to try my hand at shooting ball in my old scattergun. If I do well with it, I might even take it out for our muzzleloading deer season next year. Maybe load one barrel with buckshot and the other with ball. The season has already opened here for ML deer and obviously, I'm not ready with this gun. I'd bet that if I shot a deer with it around here, that it would be the only deer shot with ball in a ML shotgun for the last hundred years or so! To me, that's part of the appeal of muzzleloading guns--not everyone has one. :applause:

 

Stumpkiller's right-on - shot and wads produces more drag and therefor pressure than does a single round ball, even a tightly patched one.
: Now, were you to load wads with the RB like the shot load, the presures would be closer, but still more pressure with the shot load due to individual shot pellets touching the barrel is more accumulated contact than a single ball would have. The only way to increase the pressure above the shot load would be to use a straight-sided slug, like a foster slug from a Lyman mould with no grooves on the sides to reduce friction and therefore pressure. We are keeping the weights of projectiles the same here - only the # and shape is changed. The patched RB has the least. The unpatched, unwadded RB has roughly 2/3's of a patched one.

 

[robinghewitt]

So it's considered normal to shoot a patched roundball out of an English double barrelled shotgun? Is that what the old timers did?

Presumably that's why they printed "NOT FOR BALL" on choked barrels?

Anyone ever heard of "lethal ball"? Something my father said 30-40 years ago which stuck in my mind. Bit too late to ask him now.

 

[musketman]

Anyone ever heard of "lethal ball"? Something my father said 30-40 years ago which stuck in my mind. Bit too late to ask him now.

Isn't that when you shoot a rubber projectile at something, like protesters...

A non-lethal means of riot control...

 

[Stumpkiller]

Anyone ever heard of "lethal ball"? Something my father said 30-40 years ago which stuck in my mind. Bit too late to ask him now.

He was probably trying to say "Whiffle Ball".

I have the same problem trying to understand what the British say. :crackup:

The only brain-cell that fires with "Lethal Ball" is something I came across long ago that was a 1 oz. ball with a finned "wad" (I don't think it was wood. Bakelite, perhaps?) attached at the back that was intended to spin the ball. I know I don't have an example and I cannot think of the "brand."

I've got a shotgun with "Paradox" rifling that tosses lead projectiles right smartly and was never intended to be shot with shot.

 

[robinghewitt]

I had a quick google and found a reference:-

"We are each handed a 12 bore, and 6 No.6 shells, 4 No.4's, two LG and SG cartridges, and one cylindrical lethal ball each. Take anything from quail to elephant, the ammo pouch seems to tell us".

 

[Stumpkiller]

"Cylindrical" lethal ball.

The Brenneke (far left) shotgun slug has been around since the 1890's.

That's a common projectile hereabouts where rifles are verboten for large game season.

Being loyal to NY (and parsimonious), I shoot the 1/4 as pricy Remington Slugs

I have no doubt that at 50 yards one of these would kill any moving creature. They weigh 1 oz. (438 gr.), have a m.v. of about 1,600 fps and hit HARD (2,800 ft. lb. @ muzzle). I get 5" offhand groups at 100 yards from mine. By 600 yards they are on the ground and out of steam.

Seems that one of the big African types, Bell perhaps, wrote of having a pump shotgun loaded with these as a back-up when flusking out wounded jaguars; which he consided THE most dangerous of all African animals.

 

[musketman]

How about those English 16 gauge SxS percussion shotguns, they're something else, aren't they? :winking:

One thing to remember about shooting a double when you discharged only one of the loaded barrels, remove the prime from the remaining live barrel before you reload the empty tube...

There is no need to expose yourself to the business end of a loaded and primed gun...