Does a 12 g BP shotgun exist that will shoot a pattern with no holes at 35 yards?

[megasupermagnum]

I had a Pedersoli SXS 10 gauge. There was apparently two versions offered over the years, one light, and one moderate. I've never heard one accused of being heavy. Mine was something like 7 pounds 2 ounces. I think the heavier one is only 8 1/4 pounds or so, not heavy at all. Not all are choked. There isn't a lot of info out there, but from what I've found, they were offered in many configurations over the years. Mine was both barrels straight cylinder bore. It was not messed with, I had the chrome line all the way to the end. Many were cylinder and modified, although I've heard of others. Now I think they are sold either cylinder, and threaded for tubes, or possibly both barrels threaded for tubes. I did not like mine at all. I shot the heck out of it, patterned the heck out of it, shot a turkey with it, tried my best to make it work, and eventually sold it. There were three huge problems for me. One is the big one, it did not fit for squat, and I know nobody whose fits them well. I'll lump this in with fit, but it likely had another issue, and that is that mine hit low. Even with the goofy fit they have, I was looking down on the barrel, so the mid and front bead were stacked. Even with this, mine shot about 2' low at 30 yards. The second problem with mine was the low weight. Shooting it with 1 ounce loads was fine. Shooting it with 10 gauge loads was brutal. Not only the weight, but the goofy fit cracked you right in the cheek. The third problem isn't so much for shotguns, but the barrels were not regulated close enough for shooting anything but shot. I tried round balls, and they were not even close. The right barrel with a particular load I worked up did hit close enough to where you could deer hunt with it out to about 40 yards. The left barrel there was nothing you could do with it. Some smaller issues I noticed was that the caps sprayed fragments right at your forearm. With a short sleeve shirt, you will be very red after a day of shooting. Another small issue is there is no retainer for the ramrod. The recoil from the first shot moves the ramrod out, and your second shot is taken with the ramrod sticking out. I never hit the tip, but the potential is there.

Short version, the Pedersoli SXS is a well put together and decent looking modern muzzleloading shotgun. It is not a well thought out and executed shotgun for shooting. The stock design is a fail. The hammer/deflector design is a fail. The ramrod design is a fail.

The original guns do not resemble a Pedersoli, and for good reason. They were made to be shot and hunted with. An original muzzleloading shotgun will have a ramrod retainer, it wont blast you with caps, and it will at least have a stock shaped to shoot.

 

[megasupermagnum]

I picked up one of these a while ago and am very happy with it.
I needed to pick up about 1/4" on one of my shotguns and just the cover without any spacers is perfect

I have a 22 with a very low comb and the small spacer is perfect on that gun

https://www.ebay.com/itm/303725576619

That does not have any effect on pitch. As far as I know, the only reasonable way to adjust pitch on a normal shotgun is to buy the spacers for between the recoil pad, and grind them to fit. Those spacers might not work so well on a steel or brass butt plate on a muzzleloading shotgun. Pitch is more of a fine tuning, recoil/mounting thing anyway. I'm sure it can effect POA/POI, but it can't be much. I'd suggest 3Setters probably has a problem with drop or cast off, maybe both. Not pitch.

What you have pictured mainly reduces the drop AKA raises the comb, although it will slightly increase cast on as well. I don't like those, they slip around to much. I had one on a slug shotgun once, but went back to my old standard of foam with electrical tape. For adjusting shotgun comb height, I definitely like moleskin the best, and it isn't so sticky as to damage wood when removing it like a lot of tape.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I had a Pedersoli SXS 10 gauge. There was apparently two versions offered over the years, one light, and one moderate. I've never heard one accused of being heavy. Mine was something like 7 pounds 2 ounces. I think the heavier one is only 8 1/4 pounds or so, not heavy at all. Not all are choked. There isn't a lot of info out there, but from what I've found, they were offered in many configurations over the years. Mine was both barrels straight cylinder bore. It was not messed with, I had the chrome line all the way to the end. Many were cylinder and modified, although I've heard of others. Now I think they are sold either cylinder, and threaded for tubes, or possibly both barrels threaded for tubes. I did not like mine at all. I shot the heck out of it, patterned the heck out of it, shot a turkey with it, tried my best to make it work, and eventually sold it. There were three huge problems for me. One is the big one, it did not fit for squat, and I know nobody whose fits them well. I'll lump this in with fit, but it likely had another issue, and that is that mine hit low. Even with the goofy fit they have, I was looking down on the barrel, so the mid and front bead were stacked. Even with this, mine shot about 2' low at 30 yards. The second problem with mine was the low weight. Shooting it with 1 ounce loads was fine. Shooting it with 10 gauge loads was brutal. Not only the weight, but the goofy fit cracked you right in the cheek. The third problem isn't so much for shotguns, but the barrels were not regulated close enough for shooting anything but shot. I tried round balls, and they were not even close. The right barrel with a particular load I worked up did hit close enough to where you could deer hunt with it out to about 40 yards. The left barrel there was nothing you could do with it. Some smaller issues I noticed was that the caps sprayed fragments right at your forearm. With a short sleeve shirt, you will be very red after a day of shooting. Another small issue is there is no retainer for the ramrod. The recoil from the first shot moves the ramrod out, and your second shot is taken with the ramrod sticking out. I never hit the tip, but the potential is there.

Short version, the Pedersoli SXS is a well put together and decent looking modern muzzleloading shotgun. It is not a well thought out and executed shotgun for shooting. The stock design is a fail. The hammer/deflector design is a fail. The ramrod design is a fail.

The original guns do not resemble a Pedersoli, and for good reason. They were made to be shot and hunted with. An original muzzleloading shotgun will have a ramrod retainer, it wont blast you with caps, and it will at least have a stock shaped to shoot.

Both of my Pedersoli 10g fitted/fit and shoot well.
They have a poor rammer retainer via a small screw fitted to the bottom rib near the muzzles.
I shoot upto 2oz from mine and with fine powder but don't find it brutal.

It's a shame I didn't know you when you had your cylinder one. I could of aided you to regulate the two barrels.

 

[Robby]

Your probably not going to find a gun, off the shelf, with everything you desire. If those were my wants, I would save up a bit more money and compromise on the gauge.
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...1+Pedersoli+Double+Barrel+Flint+Shotgun+20+GAMore pleasant to shoot with those long days at the range too. Good luck in your search, all part of the fun.
Robby

 

[GREENSWLDE]

You must remember that when M/Ls were made before the 1860's there was no choke as we know it. Shot loads were considerably heavier that used today by choked unmenables..
Look up the British rules of proof for mid 1880s. 12/13s were proofed for 11/4oz of shot. In the 1820's The Colonel was using 11/2oz of 4's from his Manton 17bore flint gun for brown hares at a claimed 60yds. The MLAIC rules for a 12B are 11/4oz shot and 31/2 drams of powder. To get the pattern density you want up your shot charge and use card,felt or fibre,card over No.4 or2f powder and card overshot. Worked well at International birds from a cylinder tubes to 50yds. Was even said one bird had permission to land before it broke. Forget choked tubes and chrome. Find an original.. OLD DOG..

 

[JackP]

Some good reading.
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/starr.html

Thanks for the link, It's supposed to rain tomorrow and I will have plenty time to read
Jack

 

[Ninering62]

I have a Browning Citori, this is something to add a bit more challenge and just have fun

The Citori is an incredible gun. I had one & an SKB that I loved the heck out of as well. Between trap, skeet, & sporting clays I use to shoot 8000 rounds a yr. I got a Benelli Super Black Eagle 3.5 mag. I could feed everything under the sun thru that. I only have an older Pedersoli 30" dbl barrel BP shot gun now. I really like it but can't hit the broad side of a barn thus far. I'd love to shoot trap, skeet & sporting clays with it. I grew up dove & quail & rabbit hunting, in in Fl. now & not much of that around that I'm aware of.

 

[Sudsy]

I might have an opportunity to pick up a very lightly used Pedersoli Mortimer flintlock 12 gauge
Obviously it's cylinder choke but I just may say screw the trap field and stick to skeet

But If I decide at a later date that I want to do the trap thing, can you jug choke this gun? Is it chrome lined ? (seems the guys that do the jug choking don't want to seal with the chome lined guns)

And what would be a fair price for the Mortimer ?

 

[waksupi]

Holes in the pattern are usually a combination of too much powder, not enough shot.

 

[Sudsy]

Holes in the pattern are usually a combination of too much powder, not enough shot.

And distance - which is the part of the equation we're discussing.

Here's where we're at so far in this thread............
Trap targets are broken at an average of 32 to 35 yards. Most cylinder choke BP shotguns are only good to 25 yards before the pattern spreads enough to have large holes (Skychief load may be the exception). Jug choking a cylinder bore to modified might be the best option.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I might have an opportunity to pick up a very lightly used Pedersoli Mortimer flintlock 12 gauge
Obviously it's cylinder choke but I just may say screw the trap field and stick to skeet

But If I decide at a later date that I want to do the trap thing, can you jug choke this gun? Is it chrome lined ? (seems the guys that do the jug choking don't want to seal with the chome lined guns)

And what would be a fair price for the Mortimer ?

Yes it is chrome plated.
With the mortimer you shoot with your head up. You will need to see plenty of barrel, not just the bead.

The cromeplating comes off easily when jug choking but can leave a peeling edge, that is the worry.
This was my mandrel that I jug choked a Pedersoli double with.
It worked just fine.

 

[Sudsy]

With the mortimer you shoot with your head up. You will need to see plenty of barrel, not just the bead.

I don't understand (not always the quickest bullet in the magazine)

 

[Sam squanch]

I think - I maybe wrong- that fowlers from back then were supposed to be shot with the head erect, not with your cheek scrunched down on the stock. I had a very old double unmentionable that had a lot of drop in the stock. Cheek against the stock, just saw the back of the receiver. Head up, I started hitting things.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I think - I maybe wrong- that fowlers from back then were supposed to be shot with the head erect, not with your cheek scrunched down on the stock. I had a very old double unmentionable that had a lot of drop in the stock. Cheek against the stock, just saw the back of the receiver. Head up, I started hitting things.

This is true.

 

[Britsmoothy]

The gent shooting has got his head up, not down on the stock.

 

[megasupermagnum]

And distance - which is the part of the equation we're discussing.

Here's where we're at so far in this thread............
Trap targets are broken at an average of 32 to 35 yards. Most cylinder choke BP shotguns are only good to 25 yards before the pattern spreads enough to have large holes (Skychief load may be the exception). Jug choking a cylinder bore to modified might be the best option.

That is where I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Just because a cylinder bore breech loader isn't that great for anything other than close shots, doesn't mean a muzzleloading shotgun can't be. I think you will find that a cylinder bore muzzleloader will pattern surprisingly well at 35 yards, and not just with the skycheif load.

Now if you ever get to the far handicap line, then you are limited. It takes more than the average pattern to guarantee a hit at 45+ yards. Sporting clays is another thing that can often have long shots. The thing with sporting clays, at least a good course (some are cheap knockoffs of skeet), is that targets can be 10 yards away, rolling on the ground, coming towards you, just about landing on you, and some are just WAY out there, so you can never have a "best" with sporting clays.

 

[jlatz]

You must remember that when M/Ls were made before the 1860's there was no choke as we know it. Shot loads were considerably heavier that used today by choked unmenables..
Look up the British rules of proof for mid 1880s. 12/13s were proofed for 11/4oz of shot. In the 1820's The Colonel was using 11/2oz of 4's from his Manton 17bore flint gun for brown hares at a claimed 60yds. The MLAIC rules for a 12B are 11/4oz shot and 31/2 drams of powder. To get the pattern density you want up your shot charge and use card,felt or fibre,card over No.4 or2f powder and card overshot. Worked well at International birds from a cylinder tubes to 50yds. Was even said one bird had permission to land before it broke. Forget choked tubes and chrome. Find an original.. OLD DOG..

Good commentary.