Dickert & Gill - questions

[LaBonte]

There are some trade records of their guns going to Kaskaskia traders in Garavglia and Worman's book and Charles Hanson notes a reference to the brothers having provided a pattern gun to AFC around 1830.

The actual references are......
1824 - Menard and Valle of Kaskaskia:
"2 Com[mon]rifles Dickert Gill @ $11.00 and 1 best D[itto]at $12.00"

1826 - J. J. Astor letter to John J. Henry:
"...to be the same as the sample Rifle of J. Dickert Gill now furnished by the Compy."

If they are marked Dickert Gill, that would indicate that one of them made the gun. The one I mentioned that was talked about in Kaufmann's book was marked Dickert & Gill. That indicates that Jacob Dickert and James Gill sold the gun through their store since James Gill didn't build rifles

as noted above the most likely explanation for those marked Dickert Gill would have been those built by J. Dickert Gill and not by eitehr partnership. Those marked Dickert and Gill could be of the earlier era, but could just as likely (perhaps more so) have been one of the later ones by the J. Dickert and B. D. Gill shop.

I think the gun in question is late 1840's or early 50's. It also has a Leman lock and buttplate. The options there are that it was a Dickert Gill product using parts bought from Leman, who regularly sold locks, hardware and barrels to other makers. Its also possible that it is a Leman product with a barrel salvaged from another gun. If I were a betting man, I would say the former. Other than the parts, it doesn't really say percussion era Leman to me.

Third option a parts gun with a Dickert and Gill barrel, Leman lock, etc. by an unknown maker - something like the often touted iron mounted "Henry" which has a Henry barrel and maybe lock, but is in fact a NC built rifle, albeit a signed one.

 

[Extranero]

Thanks for posting those dates, Chuck. I didn't have my resources in front of me when I wrote that.

According to Whisker, Jacob (1788-1850) was taxed as a freeman gunsmith in Lancaster beginning in 1819. When he died he left an estate valued at $3,483.25 including "one lot of gunsmith tools and rifles, $60". Benjamin (1790-1860) shows up in Whisker's records as an inmate gunsmith in Lancaster in 1843 although I am sure he was working before that. There is a record of a Gill being taxed as a cabinet maker between 1841 and 1852. At the time of his death his estate was valued at $325.25 including bullet molds, work bench and tools.

I've seen a half dozen or so rifles from the Dickert Gills. To put that into perspective, there are probably less than 5 surviving Henry scroll guards out there in total, so I suspect they made a pretty fair number of rifles. Half of those that I have seen have New Mexico provenances, but that likely just relates to my location and interests.

Sean

 

[Virginian_Templar]

I don't know why the rifle mentioned in this thread is called a Dickert & Gill. There is no mention of either on that website in association with the pictures nor any sign of such markings on the gun. Being made in Lancaster does not a Dickert make. There were thousands of rifles made there.

I titled the thread that because the only information I had to go one was the name on the barrel and what I was told on another site. Basically, I knew no better. It's why I came here.

It's pretty well established that it's not a genuine "Dickert & Gill" of the 1700's rifle. Beyond that IMO is open to speculation. According to the marks that remain on the rifle itself it's from Lancaster PA, was always a percussion piece, and is from the 1830'a - 1850.

Close enough for me. If by chance this rifle, or pictures of it fill in a blank for someone who's well and truly into firearms of the period so much the better.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't see on the linked site anything about Dickert & Gill, just in the thread title. It appears that this rifle could be the product of one of Jacob Dickert's grandsons though. It's still a historical piece and interesting. I do hope that some of the info found will be of help in researching it.

 

[Extranero]

Its a great rifle and a really nice piece of history. The Dickert Gill brothers stand on their own two feet as gunsmiths with or without their Grandpap.

Sean

 

[Virginian_Templar]

As soon as I can figure this new computer out I'll try to get better pictures up. There's a small gap in the brass on the buttstock. It's probably a 16th of an inch or less. I'll rig up some better lighting too.