Dickert & Gill - questions

[Virginian_Templar]

I'm a noob here on the forums, an old timer pointed me in this direction. Long story short I have a Dickert and Gill percussion rifle that I know little to nothing about.

It was purchased from a Brother who grew up in PA. It was in the family/attic ever since he was a small child in the 1920's/30's. The lock is broken and the hammer will not lock back and at some point someone sanded the lock. You can make out only a few letters of "LANCASTER".

There are a few pictures of the rifle located here. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9939248&postcount=9

Any information about it would be appreciated. I'd like to at least get it shooting again and if it won't wreck any value I'd like to at least clean it up a little bit. The wood on the stock appears to be quite beautiful, but it's wearing a healthy dose of dirt and accumulated grime. TIA

 

[rafterob]

Looks like you got the real McCoy there. You want to find a gunsmith who specializes in muzzleloaders to look it over real good. You can possibly get it shooting again, but that may affect the value. Also, it is OK to clean it but don't start sanding, polishing or refinishing anything that may change the aged patina. That will also affect value.

 

[Virginian_Templar]

Oh no, I'm not new to the firearms scene and it makes me cringe when people say "I'ma gonna have it restored so it'll be worth something". They aren't cars and patina is sexy. That's the next question I have, how can I clean it without destroying it or its value. The gunsmiths at Colonial Williamsburg are awesome, but stupidly expensive and horribly backlogged.

Is there a muzzle stuffer expert in the SE part of VA?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Use soap and water to clean off the crud. It won't attack or harm any oil finish under it.

 

[Swampman]

Murphy's Oil Soap works well and is intended for wood.

 

[Tanselman]

Your rifle is in what collector's call "in the black" or "attic condition," which is highly desirable to most knowledgeable collectors. Any cleaning or other surface work on your part will reduce the desirability of the gun to collectors. Repairing the lock to function properly is a simple repair, and will not damage collector value... altho best done by a knowledgeable party. But it does not require an expert builder to make the repair. Check the ads in the back of Muzzle Blasts or Muzzle Loader and you will find a number of competent muzzle loading gunsmiths who can repair your lock. YOu should be able to remove the lock and mail it separately to have the repair made, and not risk shipping the entire gun. You have a nice original rifle that deserves proper care. Shelby Gallien

 

[Steve Boyleston]

Hey Fellow the Gunsmiths of Williamsburg are expensive for a reason, they understand Longrifles from one end to the other. As Shelby "The Tanselman" said do not clean the finish you will screw up untouched Attic Condition. Do not put Soap Oil at all on it- leave it as it is. Have a Pro repair the lock and do not shoot it, get a new rifle for that. There are few to surface anymore in that condition. Imagine this when you are cleaning it you are wiping away a lot of money.The Great Pintone

 

[Virginian_Templar]

Thanks gents. I've got a Brother who works at Colonial Williamsburg and a few others who are connected through various means. I know why they're really expensive, it's just that my pockets aren't deep enough to part with that kind of cash and not miss it. I'm actually in CW on a semi-regular basis, I'll have to see if I can talk to some of them face to face.

Also, the brass cap on the end was held in place by a pin or something that appears to have been peened in place. The wood that held it on has wobbled out and the cap just sits there and when I got it it was held in place with a rubber band. I assume that is repairable by a knowledgeable smith?

 

[Steve Boyleston]

Check with Clay Smith in CW- just left the Shop works at Home, he can do it. claysmithguns on the net. TGP

 

[Virginian_Templar]

My anti-virus has identified his site as a no-go, several times over. I'll keep searching for his contact info, but if anyone has it please PM it to me.

R/
Jon

 

[Steve Boyleston]

Hey Virginian- there are 2 people I would suggest- the first is a great rifle maker Son of Williamsburg Gunsmith Jon Laubach and the "best Lock maker" in the country Chris Laubach 717-426-0077 email [email protected] - 2nd Clay Smith 757-258-5895 email [email protected]. Chris is up the road from you in PA. Clay is in Williamsburg.TGP

 

[Virginian_Templar]

Much obliged sir. I'll give Clay a call soon. Need to start my new job before lining up more dollars to send out.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I'm a noob here on the forums, an old timer pointed me in this direction. Long story short I have a Dickert and Gill percussion rifle that I know little to nothing about.

It was purchased from a Brother who grew up in PA. It was in the family/attic ever since he was a small child in the 1920's/30's. The lock is broken and the hammer will not lock back and at some point someone sanded the lock. You can make out only a few letters of "LANCASTER".

There are a few pictures of the rifle located here. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9939248&postcount=9

Any information about it would be appreciated. I'd like to at least get it shooting again and if it won't wreck any value I'd like to at least clean it up a little bit. The wood on the stock appears to be quite beautiful, but it's wearing a healthy dose of dirt and accumulated grime. TIA

According to Kaufmann, Jacob Dickert's daughter married James Gill in 1787. Gill was a Lancaster dry goods merchant and for several years Dickert and Gill were partners in the gun and dry goods business. When Gill died in 1796, Dickert advertised that all outstanding claims against the partnership would be settled. Now whether or not they sold rifles by other makers I don't know. I would assume they only sold Dickert's guns. The rifle shown in the link you posted doesn't look like any Dickert I ever saw. So if it is stamped Dickert & Gill on the top barrel flat, it must mean that they sold other maker's products. This one appears to be originally percussion and any rifle marked with the partnership's name would have been made prior to 1797. Also, the style of patchbox on this rifle puts it in the early 19th Century which is too late for Dickert & Gill. Hope this helps.

 

[Zonie]

In my opinion, the deeply curved butt plate and the patch box with wood showing between the sides of the door and the side plates added to the round contour of the rear of the Percussion lockplate all say this rifle was made in the 1830-1850 time period.

The lack of a relief in the wood behind hammer indicates that the gun was probably always a Percussion gun.

I don't find anything that lists a "Dickert & Gill" as gunmakers.

As Jacob Dickert died in 1822 it is unlikely that he had anything to do with this gun.
Although I don't find anyone named Dickert listed as a gunmaker after Jacobs death just about anyone named Dickert could have gone into business with a Mr. Gill.

Speaking of Mr. Gill, "AMERICAN FIREARMS MAKERS" by A. Merwyn Carey, 1953 lists two men named "Gill" who made guns in roughly the time I mentioned above.

"Gill, Benjamin 1830-1850 [period he was producing guns]. Born 1790. Set up a gunshop at Lancaster Pennsylvania,, in 1830, was active about 20 years. Made flintlock and later, percussion Kentucky rifles. Died 1860."

"Gill, Jacob 1820-1831 [period he was producing guns]. General gunsmith, made flintlock Kentucky rifles at Lancaster, Pennsylvania."

Hope this helps.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Yeah, that rifle was not made by Dickert. It is an original percussion rifle and very, very few rifles made before 1830 had that much curve in the butt. The patchbox, though many like it were made in Lancaster County in the late flint period, was a style not used by Dickert.

In addition to the two Gills you mention I also found a D.B. Gill listed in Lancaster as a gunsmith in 1848.

As for the Dickert and Gill partnership, it was indeed Jacob Dickert the famous gunmaker who was in it. His daughter married James Gill who was a merchant (not a gunsmith). They formed a partnership sometime after 1787 and sold dry goods and guns (I'm presuming they were Dickert guns). There is at least one gun in existence (in 1960) marked Dickert & Gill. Gill died in 1796.

I don't know why the rifle mentioned in this thread is called a Dickert & Gill. There is no mention of either on that website in association with the pictures nor any sign of such markings on the gun. Being made in Lancaster does not a Dickert make. There were thousands of rifles made there.

Anyhow, I hope we gave enough info to clear up some things.

 

[Extranero]

In my opinion, the deeply curved butt plate and the patch box with wood showing between the sides of the door and the side plates added to the round contour of the rear of the Percussion lockplate all say this rifle was made in the 1830-1850 time period.

The lack of a relief in the wood behind hammer indicates that the gun was probably always a Percussion gun.

I don't find anything that lists a "Dickert & Gill" as gunmakers.

As Jacob Dickert died in 1822 it is unlikely that he had anything to do with this gun.
Although I don't find anyone named Dickert listed as a gunmaker after Jacobs death just about anyone named Dickert could have gone into business with a Mr. Gill.

Speaking of Mr. Gill, "AMERICAN FIREARMS MAKERS" by A. Merwyn Carey, 1953 lists two men named "Gill" who made guns in roughly the time I mentioned above.

"Gill, Benjamin 1830-1850 [period he was producing guns]. Born 1790. Set up a gunshop at Lancaster Pennsylvania,, in 1830, was active about 20 years. Made flintlock and later, percussion Kentucky rifles. Died 1860."

"Gill, Jacob 1820-1831 [period he was producing guns]. General gunsmith, made flintlock Kentucky rifles at Lancaster, Pennsylvania."

Hope this helps.

Zonie,

Carey is missing some info there. Those last two guys he has listed in your post are Jacob and Benjamin Dickert Gill. They are the grandsons of Jacob Dickert and the sons of James Gill who worked together in the 1790's until the death of Gill in 1796. The two grandsons worked variously together and apart in Lancaster. The elder brother, Jacob Dickert Gill died in the early 1850's IIRC, Benjamin died around 1860-62. There are several original guns out there signed "J Dickert Gill" with the same crossed tomahawk and arrow cartouche in the middle that the elder Jabob used as well as guns signed "BD Gill" with the cartouche. I've also seen a few guns here and there signed "Dickert Gill" with and without the cartouche. Some seem to have architecture that postdates 1796 with James Gill Died, although this is by far the latest one I have seen. The two brothers are thought to have made guns for the Illinois/Missouri fur trade in the 1820s and 30's. There are some trade records of their guns going to Kaskaskia traders in Garavglia and Worman's book and Charles Hanson notes a reference to the brothers having provided a pattern gun to AFC around 1830. Dillin also sows a rather poor black and white photo of a BD Gill rifle that was thought to have been owned by Kit Carson and was traded to a Pueblo Indian. I generally prefer not to recommend Whisker's books, but he has some info on the brothers in his book "Gunsmiths of Lancaster Co" although no pictures of guns signed by them.

Sean

 

[Tumblernotch]

That makes sense. I didn't have that info, thanks. That would probably explain why there are some marked that way. If they are marked Dickert Gill, that would indicate that one of them made the gun. The one I mentioned that was talked about in Kaufmann's book was marked Dickert & Gill. That indicates that Jacob Dickert and James Gill sold the gun through their store since James Gill didn't build rifles. It was most likely a Jacob Dickert rifle made for sale through the store, though it's possible that they sold rifles made by others. I doubt it though since Dickert was at his peak.

Do you have any information that shows that Dickert's grandsons apprenticed under him? That would be interesting.

 

[Extranero]

Jim Gordon notes that there is some evidence that Benjamin may have apprenticed with his grandfather, but does not cite that info. I've always wondered if Jacob didn't apprentice with Jacob Hoak in Lancaster. There are a lot of similarities between their patchboxes and engraving styles. Both JDG and BDG were much better engravers than their grandfather. In general JD Gill's guns are a bit more common then Benjamin's. Whisker notes that the two worked as both gunsmiths and cabinet makers. They started out doing quite well in the trade rifle business, but ended up being relatively minor players by the mid-1830's when larger, more factory-like shops such as Henry, Deringer and Tryon began to dominate.

I think the gun in question is late 1840's or early 50's. It also has a Leman lock and buttplate. The options there are that it was a Dickert Gill product using parts bought from Leman, who regularly sold locks, hardware and barrels to other makers. Its also possible that it is a Leman product with a barrel salvaged from another gun. If I were a betting man, I would say the former. Other than the parts, it doesn't really say percussion era Leman to me.

Sean

 

[Extranero]

Also, I don't know if there is enough info out there on James Gill to definitively say that he was not a gunsmith as well as a merchant.

Sean

 

[Tumblernotch]

It's possible that he was. What little information I have about him just says that he was a merchant. I tend to believe that Dickert would've partnered with someone in a like trade, but since Gill was his son-in-law, maybe it was just a convenient situation.