Dangerous mass produced muzzleloaders

[BigBoreBLR]

Curious to hear people experiences or knowledge of internet folklore.

I recently bought a Ultra Hi made by Miroku in Japan. Some say they're dangerous.

 

[galamb]

I have been shooting for a little over 40 years now. Black powder and smokeless in any number of rifles, including 22 years in the military.

I have never personally witnessed a catastrophic failure of any description.

No burst barrels, no blown nipples - nada.

I have seen forestocks "burn" because of barrel heat from firing hundreds of rounds successively (that was on 7.62 mm Belgian made semi's - "FNC1" - we would "try" to get them to light up).

And in my personal "arsenal" I have a couple of those $50 shotguns you hear horror stories about (most probably by the marketers of higher quality firearms and the parrots that propagate the message).

So while the gun culture in Canada is no where near what it is in the US, of all the gun owners I know and have ever known, who collectively shoot a huge variety of guns built in virtually all corners of the world, I can say I have no first hand knowledge of a failure that would have/could have caused any bodily damage unless someone was on the receiving end of the projectile.

 

[tenngun]

Many of the ones from the 70s had to piece barrels that could rupture, and the bore wasn't true. I had one and it shot well, wouldn't think of shoting it now.

 

[George T.]

The steel quality in modern times is much better and if you use black powder you should not have problems. The company you named makes Howa , Weatherby ,Charles Daley and Browning over and unders as well as Winchesters. They also made the Jonathan Browning mountain rifles. If they ever made "junk" guns I have not heard of it.

Geo. T.

 

[BigBoreBLR]

I agree Miroku makes great stuff. In the non-muzzleloading realm, that maker has been what I have been buying exclusively the past few years.

That's why I wanted this gun. A muzzleloader made by miroku.

I'm not worried about it. I think this gun has a bad rap because CVA made the same gun, or whoever in spain make their stuff for them.

 

[Diggerfly]

Seems to me the Japanese have known about good metal for a loong time. :grin:
I'm not sure what one would have to do to a ML made of modern steel to burst it. You think about how much metal is around the chamber and how much lower the PSI is for BP vs. modern smokeless powder... :idunno: Seems almost impossible unless you weld something over the end of the barrel.

Not that I want to tempt fate or anything! :nono:

~Dig

 

[MSW]

beware of bridge trolls, and stories of catastrophes (which are usually recounted with great enthusiasm and very fuzzy provenance: "I heard about this guy...")

"it's a well known fact that ..."

"everybody knows that ..."

"I read in a book that ..."

don't hesitate to turn up the gain on your BS detector...

just one guy's advice: free and no doubt well worth the cost!

 

[Rifleman1776]

The early Ultra Hi rifles were not known for blowing up. They were mostly known for not working at all. Real El Junko. Can't speak for today's production. Personally, I like sticking with American or European made anything firearms related.

 

[S.Kenton]

I havn't been shooting BP as long as some on this forum. I have, however, been shooting long enough and been around enough BP firearms ( mostly percussion) to know that it's normally NOT the firearms fault. I would guess that someone tampering with the breech plug, nipple installed incorrectly, using the wrong powder...stuff like that, causes many rumors to circulate and make the Factory made M'lers look bad in some cases. I'm sure there have been incidents that the factory was in the wrong..but I'd say that's fairly rare.

 

[will5a1]

Anyone recall, or have copies of, the articles in "The Buckskin Report" of foreign manufacture BP guns failing, misaligned & welded barrels, faulty breechplugs and other misc. safety issues? I thought Baird documented actual failures in the 70's and early 80's until the magazine went out of publication.

 

[BigBoreBLR]

I am OK with my ultra hi. Actually, it needs a new mainspring. Should be here tomorrow. Maybe need a new nipple too, will order that somewhere else with a bigger order.

I only put 40 grains FFFg in it, so pressure is really low in my case.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

The really early Ultra High guns weren't dangerous as in they would blow up. The barrels were fairly good. The lock interiors tended to be improperly hardened and could crumble to bits. Markwell Arms Spanish made guns had the same problem. Belgians made a few with dangewrous barrels and there were some Chinese three piece barrels with a breech plug, 8 inch octogon piece and then a round barrel screwed into that. There were lips in the bore where the Octagon met the round. I have a Italian made Zouave barrel that is three pieces. A bolster breech plug and separate barrel both have female threads. They are held together by a two inch long threaded piece that looks like a cast iron nipple from the plumbing dept at the hardware store. There is indeed a "lip" in the bore about three inches from the breech.

I have never seen or been present when a barrel failed. I have personally experienced a Markwell lock failure. The tumbler cracked into four different pieces on the fifth shot out of the box.

 

[bilder]

Biggest issue I have seen with modern ML rifles are poor adjustment of the nipple right out of the box.

I am a manager for a membership store here in the Pacific Northwest and have had to send a couple ML rifles in for service because of misfires.

The problem is that the nipple is too far back from the hammer and the caps are not being struck true every time. A simple adjustment, but some guys do not know any better or they are uncomfortable doing it themselves so we have to send it in for "repair".

I wonder what the guys at Traditions think when they get these 'broken' guns in for service?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Thirty years ago folks poo-poo'd the Miroku made barrels as they were made in Japan and not proofed..., but since a great deal of their Bess muskets made for Dixie Gun Works and Navy Arms are still going strong, that chorus of nay sayers has dwindled to nothing. Miroku's rifle barrels were much thicker than their musket barrels.

The major problem with any of the older ML's is the worship of the proofing house by some people. Many folks who pontificate about "proofed" barrels in muzzleloaders don't understand that each country has its own standards for black powder proofing even though the standards for breech loading cartridges are all the same. Many of these same folks also don't understand that the proof mark merely means the barrel came out of the testing location approved..., what has happened to that same barrel over the past years or decades is anybody's guess.

If the barrel hasn't been corroded over time, or damaged in some other manner, it's probably going to hold a basic BP charge. Whether or not it's accurate is another discussion...

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

Anyone recall, or have copies of, the articles in "The Buckskin Report" of foreign manufacture BP guns failing, misaligned & welded barrels, faulty breechplugs and other misc. safety issues? I thought Baird documented actual failures in the 70's and early 80's until the magazine went out of publication.

After storing mine for decades I finally gave all away. Baird's big crusade was against the early TC 'hawken' rifles and how they were assembled.

 

[kingsax26]

I feel it depends on whe the gun was made.....seen some old Miroku guns with 2 piece barrels Yikes! but I have a miroku made squirrel rifle that was sold by DGW... its a good quality rifle...lock ist the best but its still a good rifle

 

[Loyalist Dave]

My Pedersoli 20 gauge SxS caplock has two piece barrels, with stamped checkering to hide the seam where the breech attaches to the barrels. No "yikes" needed. :grin:

LD

 

[Dphar]

I agree Miroku makes great stuff. In the non-muzzleloading realm, that maker has been what I have been buying exclusively the past few years.

That's why I wanted this gun. A muzzleloader made by miroku.

I'm not worried about it. I think this gun has a bad rap because CVA made the same gun, or whoever in spain make their stuff for them.

Their MLs were mostly junk.
The list of problems is long enough I don't feel like typing it but I put out the ones I remember. 1/2 octagonal barrels, for example, were an octagonal piece with a round piece screwed into it. That the bores of the two pieces did not match up and would trap a jag with a patch on it did not seem to concern Miroku. There were photos of one of these that had a section of the barrel milled away at the threaded joint in the "Buckskin Report" If it says Ultra-Hi on it I would not want to be on the range where it was being shot.
I consider all of them to be pipe bombs. Some have the breech tang welded on in manner than locks the breech plug in so it cannot be removed. Welded on underlug tenons, with or without internal scaling.
These were designed as wall hangers, at least I hope so.
Dan

 

[Dphar]

My Pedersoli 20 gauge SxS caplock has two piece barrels, with stamped checkering to hide the seam where the breech attaches to the barrels. No "yikes" needed. :grin:

LD

You obviously do not understand the term "two piece barrel" in the context of "Ultra-Hi" firearms.
Dan

 

[Dphar]

The steel quality in modern times is much better and if you use black powder you should not have problems. The company you named makes Howa , Weatherby ,Charles Daley and Browning over and unders as well as Winchesters. They also made the Jonathan Browning mountain rifles. If they ever made "junk" guns I have not heard of it.

Geo. T.

This is another myth. "Modern steel makes it OK."
Many US made modern "custom" ML barrels are made of a material that is inferior for gun barrel use than a properly skelp welded "best iron" barrel. Or a lot of other barrels from the 18th and 19th c.
Many, dare I say "virtually all", "custom" ML barrel makers use a steel that is SPECIFICALLY NOT RECOMMENDED for gun barrels of any kind BY THE STEEL MILLS THAT MAKE IT.
People like to decry the European made guns but to my knowledge Pedersoli uses a good European standard gun barrel steel in all their reproductions. To the point that a long time ML shooter and METALLURGIST. Will not shoot American made MLs choosing Italian guns instead.
I find it hilarious that a few, very few, American ML barrel makers and the Europeans can cut rifle tough hard to rifle steels into ML barrels but many ML barrel makers here get insulted if you even offer to furnish better steel so they can make a barrel from it.

Trust me Miroku made a BUNCH of MLs that were best driven into the ground as stops for barn or machinery shed doors. Its well documented.

Dan