CVA Mt Rifle A little history.

[chapmans]

Hi folks,
I have noticed alot of intrest in the old CVA MT. rifles and have a little history for those who care.
The CVA MT. Rifle was born a 1/4 mile from my house, the very first rifle (prototype) was built for CVA by Don Kammerer, I was a teenager at the time. Don had a booth at Friendship and so did CVA and he became friends with Dave Silk who was the Pres. (and owner I think) and as Don was a common man he wanted to see an economical rifle on the market that was a little closer to a period style halfstock that was also a shooter. Dave Silk agreed and Don began working on a rifle that could be mass produced,looked good,and shot well. Dave took Don to Spain on several occasions and took a piece of a Douglas barrel with him and accually showed them how to make a proper barrel. I still have a cross sectioned piece of that very barrel he made in their factory.
I spent alot of time in Don's shop and watched him build that first rifle, the rifle had a Douglas barrel and the gun he used as a pattern I think was a J.P. Gemmer squirrel rifle, it was a little slimmer and lighter than a full blown Hawkin.
I have all of Don's stuff and I have pics of this rifle somewhere
CVA sent a fellow to work with Don for a summer to learn about building rifles. I was in the shop alot that summer and even went squirrel hunting with him but I am sorry to say I can't remember his name. I know he went to work for Lyman and was inspirational in the GPR.
CVA invited several gun writers on a Texas whitetail hunt to try out the "new MT Rifles" and Don was invited, the only other name I remember is John Wooters but I know there were others. There was a little booklet that came with the rifles then and there was a picture of Don on that hunt.
I don't think any of the production rifles had Douglas barrels just the prototype that Don built. The stocks on the Mt. Rifles were maple there other guns were beech or something but the MT Rifle was maple I have several and also still have one stock that is like one from a kit that I can build a rifle around.
Don Kammerer challenged Don Davis to a match(at Friendship) where Don D. could use his custom OH gun and Don K. went to the CVA booth and took one off of the shelf. They set up a match at the end of the day after the last regular relay they started shooting when Don Kammerer had finished he heard Don Davis shoot then scream something and when Don K. walked down there Don Davis said he had double charged and shot one out in the white so Don K. let Don Davis shoot another shot and Don Davis won the match by one point but there is a picture of Don Davis pointing at his target and has his finger over the bad shot. There was an article in Muzzle Blasts about this match years ago with pics this is how the off the shelf match got started.
Well I've rambled enough for now hope this was interesting to some of you,if I can remember any thing else I'll post it
Regards Longball 58

 

[BrownBear]

That's a terrific bit of history! I'm always curious about the history of modern production guns and how they came to be, and this certainly fits the bill well.

I was really taken by this: "I know he went to work for Lyman and was inspirational in the GPR." I've always been fond of the GPR and admired its looks, but kinda wondered where the design came from. One more little bit of info to feed the curiosity bug.

 

[Mountainman56]

Thank you for the information. I recently acquired an older CVA mountain rifle myself and I really appreciate you posting the history. :thumbsup:

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Any idea when MuzzleBlasts covered the Kammerer/Davis Match? I have all issures from 77 on and would look up the article.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Dan Leroy]

amazing What You Can Learn From The People
Here On This Forum Keep It Coming
Thanks For The Great Story About CVA

---------------------------
Dan-L

 

[mazo kid]

Thanks for the history lesson Steve. Remember back in the 70s-early 80s when there was a big rivalry between CVA and T/C with factory teams shooting for score? I can't remember who won the most matches, seems that it was fairly even with maybe T/C having the edge. I had one of those early CVA mountain rifles back in the 70s, but sold it to a co-worker a few years ago as I was switching to flinters.

 

[chapmans]

Hi Larry,
It is very close to that time frame maybe 76 I'm not sure,I have copies of thoe pics,I would dig out the 77 through 80 and see.I would like to read them again if you find it bring it along on Sat.
Regards Steve C.

 

[Runner]

I held the gun they were inspired by, and if you shoehorned a tapered hammer forged barrel into one and added a bunch of drop, it is a pretty good reflection of the original. Gemmer still doesn't sound right to me for some reason tho. The first run barrels are Douglas supposedly. Somewhere in there they supposedly switched to Numrich, and then to Spanish made.

Do you know who made the decision on how the breech is designed? They is still the very best of the production rifles of this type ever built, including the GPR, in my opinion!

 

[jtmattison]

Interesting story behind the rifle. Thank you for sharing it.

:hatsoff:

HD

 

[chapmans]

Another thing I remember was all of the people who had a hard time getting there guns to go off not just CVA's but any traditional ml and they would bring them to the shop and Don would give them all a lesson in the proper care and feeding of a caplock rifle, the biggest problem was they didn't get the breech dried out before they loaded their gun. Anyhow he would put a clean patch on a range rod and push it down and snap 3 or 4 caps then pull out the patch and replace it with a clean one and snap 1 cap pull it out and if there was no oil on it he would load it, if there was oil on it he would snap caps until it was dry. Don would load the gun using Hodgdons spit patch then he would put a cap on the nipple with a little Vasoline around the cap to seal it, then he would take the barrel out of the stock and immerse it in a tank of water and talk about the world series or a high school ball game or somthing and the people would say hey don't you think you should take the bbl out, then he would lift out the bbl keeping the muzzle up for effect and pour the water out of the bbl, then he would put the bbl back in the stock and shoot it. They always went off I saw him do this several times and they always went off I don't know if he was lucky or what. He did this to prove that these gun were dependable if you did things proper.
Please don't try this unless you keep that bbl pointed down range because that bbl is a loaded gun and one bump on that cap and it will go off.
Longball58

 

[cowpoke1955]

Very interesting. I always thought the Mountain Rifle and the GPR looked simular. Now we know why. Thanks for the back ground :thumbsup: .

 

[chapmans]

The breech is an English design but Don used it in the prototype as in most of his custom guns, he liked it for it's strength, I have several of these that Don cross sectioned, heck I have a whole Mt rifle that is cross sectioned. With any useable parts missing.

 

[bwhoffman]

I have an older one, presumably with a
Douglas" barrel, stamped boldy "Made in USA". No matter what it is really. I like it, it suits me, shoots fine and IS NOT FOR SALE!

by chance, if Douglas wasnt the production barrel maker, might you know who was? purely for curiosity sake!

Appreciate your historical insight!

Brett

 

[Walks Alone]

Very good read. Thanks so much for sharing it. It's great to have somebody here "who was there" to pass on some history about the CVA's. :thumbsup:

Hopefully you knew this would be forthcoming... lots of questions.

One comment by you I have to ask about...

"I don't think any of the production rifles had Douglas barrels just the prototype that Don built."

Some years ago I called and talked to an old gent at CVA asking for info about their early products. I have his name written down along with the notes from the conversation, but it’s packed away in storage somewhere from a move to a new home since them. He said he had been with CVA from the start, and had pretty good recall just from memory when I asked him some questions about my early 32 & 36 Squirrels, 45 MT rifle and a 45 Kentucky and a 45 Philly Derringer I had at the time. According to him, the early MT's did have Douglas barrels, and he also brought up the distinction of their patch boxes and thimbles to tell them apart form later MT's. So if that's not correct, then who did make the "Made in USA" barrels for CVA?

Also, the old gent couldn't recall them... do you remember the Sieber percussion pistols that CVA imported? My 45 is patterned after the Hege-Sieber 31's that have been wining matches in Europe for years (and this one in Las Vegas BTW). Only difference in appearance between them is caliber and mine has a bright instead of blued barrel. Same highly figured wood/checkering, same high quality fit and finish, same exceptional accuracy when shooting. Approximately what years were they available from CVA, and more importantly who made them? Did CVA make them, or did Hege make them for CVA to import?

Also on the Sieber pistol, can I PM you with some questions about its single set trigger? I've never been able to figure out how to set it so it works and have been shooting it without it set. It still shoots so well it’s unbeatable at my local free trappers matches, so I can only imagine what it might do if I could get the set trigger to work.

Thanks, and welcome to the forums.

WA

 

[RedFeather]

Glad you posted this. As time goes by, such information can become lost forever. Now, when I see a CVA Mountain Rifle, I will think of that shop with a kid hanging out.

(Doesn't matter if the early ones were Douglas barreled or not. Fact is, everyone says they shoot the best. I will give the nod to this man's story.)

 

[chapmans]

I honestly don't think there were any production Mt Rifles with Douglas bbls I just think it was too cost prohibitive also that is real close to the time Douglas got out of the ML bbl business.
Don was one of my best friends I first met him when he came home from the army in 1963 I shot my first ML that day with a gun that he built in 1957 when he was in HS it had a .45 Douglas bbl. He was a firm believer in Douglas bbls. and not once did he ever mention that the Mt Rifle had used Douglas I know he would have really made a big deal out of it if they were.
I was 5 yrs old when we met and I new Don well until he died in 1997 we hunted together,fished together shot MLs together. My daughter shot that same gun when she was 5 and shot an 8 a 9 and an x and she was so tickled that she had to go show Don and he kept her target and that really upset her so then we left and went home and about 1/2 hr later Don pulled in the driveway and he had framed her target and signed and dated it. We still have that target that was 91 or 92. Two years later he built her a scaled down southern Mt rifle with a piece of antler on the heel and toe from a buck I killed the day I met my wife, the walnut stock came from a local barn it was the main beam and the barn had been built in the 1860's. Sorry I'm rambling.
As far as the CVA pistol's I'm not very familiar with them I do have some parts for the odd CVA guns and have a 50 cal ammo box full of pistol barrels.
Longball58

 

[Runner]

Somewhere along the line, production tolerances ate up all the benefit of the breech design. The powder channel/chamber has threads ending into it that get filled with oil. The flash channel is now less than .24. The drum hole is about the same. The drums are shorter than the holes they are drilling and tapping for them, leaving an empty chamber at the end in there to collect oil or any other liquid. The threads on the sides of the powder chamber wick this oil back out of those threads. This is the source of the stories you hear about them not going off in the field. You can clean the breech area all you want, but if there is oil in those threads, there is a good chance the gun will not go off after being loaded for an extended time. It doesn't matter what powder you use either.
If you hunt with one of these guns, never put anything liquid down the barrel that will not easily evaporate. Store the guns upside down with a dry patch rammed all the way to absorb what trickles out of the breech threads over time.
Once you figure out how to handle them, they are as dependable as any gun made. I still pull the screw and use a 2 grain prime under the nipple in hunting conditions.

 

[nw_hunter]

Keep Rambling :hatsoff: My first ML was a CVA Mt rifle. I think around 1979 or 80.Used those little plastic cups for the round balls. Just didn't know any better :redface:

 

[chapmans]

I was just going through some old Muzzle Blasts(june 1976) and came across a full pg add for the CVA Mt Rifle kit and I quote"To ensure complete authenticity and ease of construction, CVA and well-known muzzloading custom gunsmith Don Kammerer teamed their expertise to re-create this fine rifle."
This is the first time I ever saw Don given any credit in print for his working on this project.
Don had a gentlemen's aggreement with CVA and was supposed to get a royalty of $1.00 per gun sold but since there was nothing in writing Don got no royalties. He did get a couple trips to Spain and some parts.
Longball 58

 

[Mountainman56]

Keep Rambling :hatsoff: My first ML was a CVA Mt rifle. I think around 1979 or 80.Used those little plastic cups for the round balls. Just didn't know any better :redface:

POLY PATCHES!!! I remember those. Different colours for each calibre. Hate to admit but I used them myself in the 70's