Cut down Lorenz 186X Musket?

[ecolometrics]

Hi, I'm new to this forum and muskets in general. I apologize for any incorrect terminology, I'm more familiar with swords than firearms.

I came across this musket at a garage sale. I was told it was a wall hanger though at some point it was not. At first I thought it was some kind of carbine, but now I believe after looking on the web, that this must have been some kind Lorenz musket. I have taken close up pictures and put them up on my gallery here (let me know if there are any issues):
https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-R5wdpc/i-FPn2NMG

The closest match I could find is of "Lorenz Infanterie Gewehr Versuchsmodell 1861." It almost looks like a 1862 version except that the belt loop in front of the trigger guard. This is the website that made me come to this conclusion
http://www.hungariae.com/Lorenz.htm

Besides being cut down, has this been "deactivated?"

Some observations:

1) I think this was a "full sized" musket at some point that got cut down:
a) The first clue is that there is only one belt loop.
b) When I looked closer at the end of the barrel I noticed some lines, as if hacksaw marks, near the tip.
c) The tip end of the barrel is not 90 degrees.
b) The barrel seems to taper towards the tip, but there seems to be some sanding that was done to the barrel right where the "metal ramrod end holder" slides on.
e) The "metal ramrod end holder" comes of easily, and the screw/nail hole on the side does not line up with anything.

2) I found few markings:
a) Most of the screw heads have the number "19" on them. The "metal band" that holds the barrel with the stock as well as the piece that holds the "metal band" from sliding off has this number.
b) The "metal ramrod end holder" has the number "26" on it. There is no ram-rod.
c) The metal plate on the trigger mechanism (right side) under the hammer has the number "851." It also has some kind of marking that I can not make out. Could it be some sort of double eagle imperial standard with a crown?

3) The end of the barrel does not appear to be uniformly round. I got measurements up to 14mm (I did not use a caliper).

Other observations:

4) The "hammer" action works.
a) When I pull back on the hammer all the way back, and then squeeze the trigger there is a definitive strong action from the hammer.
b) The hammer seems to be missing a screw that holds it in place. It comes off easily, revealing red rust underneath.
c) Of the two rivets behind the hammer, to me it looks like a part of a rivet broke off

5) The barrel seems to be in "poor" shape to my untrained eyes, and a cheap borescope camera.
a) There is finish loss in the barrel. The light of the camera is blue in color, so this "finish" looks white.
b) There are at least two "gold" colored crystal growths inside the barrel.
c) When I reached the end of the barrel, the borescope was only 16 inch in. Right at the iron sights. This means there is 6 inches of solid "something" between the barrel end and the hammer head. This is what made me believe that his has been "deactivated." Of the barrel pictures, in picture 7, I thought I saw a hole for the "ignition source" but now I'm not so sure.

Some questions

My father-in-law inherited a full sized musket from his father. When I saw this at the garage sale I thought that this might make a nice present. But I would think a working musket would be a better present than a non-working one. So:

1) Should I do anything to this to make it "better," since this has already been modified am I better of leaving it as is?
2) What needs to be done to get this to "work?"
3) Of the work that needs to be done, is this something that I can do with regular tools without doing additional harm? Is there a resource I can use for this, like a "restoring muskets for dummies?" I have cleaned up at least one sword from rust and then oiled it, but I do not want to assume.
4) Lastly (I'm in the US, NM now NY in the future - he is in IL) do any gun laws apply here? I do not own any guns so I truly do not know.

Thank you for any information on this.

 

[nhmoose]

It is most likely still loaded from the sound of it. Or the bore is blocked be very careful. You may need to take it to a gunsmith to be sure as at your level of interest that would be the safest method to me.

 

[Zonie]

The musket is definetly older than 1898 so it qualifies as an antique as far as Federal regulations are concerned.

There should be no problem with transporting or shipping or possessing it in the US.

That said, some shipping companies like Fed Ex will sometimes balk at shipping firearms so if you choose to send it somewhere just say it is an antique.

As nhmoose mentioned, there is the possibility that it is still loaded so do not try to fire it with a musket cap on the nipple.

I don't know enough about the Lorenz to give any helpful information.

 

[hawkeye2]

It's 100% certain that it has been shortened.

" the belt loop in front of the trigger guard." They are called sling swivels.

"The tip end of the barrel is not 90 degrees." An adjustable square is a poor tool to check with unless you have an extremely high quality (machinist's) square. The barrel is also tapered so you can't get a good reading anyway. If it's out of square a gunsmith can true it up easily.

"metal ramrod end holder" Nose cap or front band

"The "metal ramrod end holder" comes of easily, and the screw/nail hole on the side does not line up with anything." The hole is for a band spring similar to the one that is holding the other band in place except it was behind the front band and had a projection that came out into the hole to hold the cap on.


"Of the two rivets behind the hammer" These should be screws coming in from the back side of the lock. The top one is for the sear spring and the bottom one goes through the bridle and the sear also pivots on it.

"Should I do anything to this to make it "better," since this has already been modified am I better of leaving it as is?" That is entirely dependent on your skills and the tools you have. If it were mine I would restore it to a functioning condition and proceed from there. The bore is very bad but if cleaned might be able to shoot a projectile but I wouldn't expect much from it however that's assuming that the pitting doesn't go deep enough to be dangerous. I would recommend removing the breech plug to examine the threads and to facilitate cleaning the bore. It can be shot without the front band. It makes a good "wall hanger" as is and I know a lot of skirmishers that would view it as good source of parts. It is possible to restore it to its original condition as everything you would need is available and Hoyt can lengthen and reline the barrel but the project wouldn't be cheap. A skirmisher wanting one to shoot might go that route since they would want a like new barrel anyway but I wouldn't bother for a gun that would only see occasional use, better to buy a complete one. There are a lot of books that deal with repairing and restoring antique guns out there and a search will turn them up. Other than cleaning with WD-40 and 0000 steel wool I wouldn't do anything to the metal finish and do not sand or refinish the wood (looks like that was done once).

Thank you for providing such excellent photos, I wish everyone would do the same when they ask a question.

 

[hawkeye2]

I'm curious as to why this was transferred to the smoothbore section as all Lorenzs were rifled. :idunno:

 

[Zonie]

Beats me.

I don't know why it was moved at all.

The Lorenz was made in the 1850's and 1860's.

It was rifled and it was used by both sides in the American Civil War.

I think I'll move it back to Firearm Identification.

Hope ecolometrics can keep up with all of this. :rotf:

 

[ecolometrics]

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

I didn't even consider that it could be loaded. No more testing the trigger. A gun is a gun even if it is an antique I guess.

Since it might be loaded to me it seems I really only have two options: leave it as is or take it to a gunsmith. Though I'm not sure how I'd ship it loaded.

I did some reading of the forum and what surprised me is that it seems doing barrel repair does nothing to the value of the specimen. The argument I came across: you can always repair it later but you could never undo the repair, etc. I probably will not have this done, since if I gift this the said person will simply use it as a wall hanger.

 

[Dibbuk]

There is a fairly simple way to check if the rifle is loaded.

Buy a 1/4" or 3/8" diameter dowel at the local hardware or lumber shop.
Lower the dowel in the barrel until it hits bottom. Mark the dowel at the muzzle with a felt-tip pen.
Remove the dowel and lay it along the outside of the barrel, with the mark lined up with the muzzle.

If the dowel goes all the way to the nipple area, it is probably empty.
If the dowel stopped ahead of the nipple area, then something is blocking the barrel. Probably a charge of powder and a ball.

 

[Zonie]

To toss in a comment about checking to see if the gun is loaded, if you follow Gun Nut 73's guide and the end of the ramrod ends up about 5/8 to 1 3/8 inchs closer to the muzzle than where the nipple is located you have look for the joint between the front of the breech plug and the rear of the barrel.

The breech plug and nipple are in a seperate piece of steel that is screwed into the rear of the barrel.
The threads are just ahead of the joint where the breech plug block meets the rear of the barrel.
They usually extend into the barrel about 3/4".

That would make the dowel stop about 1 1/4" forward from the actual nipple.

If the dowel stopped closer to the muzzle than 1 3/8" forward of the nipple, the gun might be loaded.