Cone threads on original SxS

[11Bravo]

I have a 14 ga with Belgian proofs and when I get the nipples out I was wondering if all nipples back then had a standard thread like m6-0.75. Or did the barrel makers use proprietary ones and they could have been unique?
Thanks much

 

[Artificer]

EXCELLENT question. The answer is outside the Military Percussion firearms, thread size on civilian percussion arms varied a GREAT deal according to who made the gun. IOW, you HAVE to actually use a thread gage on most original cones to find out the thread size. American and English guns had so many threads per inch, "Dutch" guns may have had that or may have had metric threads, most French guns and many Belgium guns had metric threads.

OH and just because American percussion civilian guns and rifles used threads per inch, the number of threads per inch varied a great deal. Our modern 1/2 x 28 TPI for percussion guns didn't really become standard until very late 19th century or even the early 20th century, though I'm not exactly sure when.

Gus

 

[11Bravo]

Thank you Gus, I'm familiar with strange threads that is why I asked. I have Whitworth taps and dies from working on old Brit bikes in the past so I'm always careful with threads. I have an idea the gun was French built with the Belgian proofed barrels. I have a last ditch method of removing the cones, but they would be useless after so whatever the thread is, are all the strange sizes available?
Wayne

 

[Artificer]

I have a last ditch method of removing the cones, but they would be useless after so whatever the thread is, are all the strange sizes available?

No and not even close to all the old sizes of cones. That's the bad news.

HOWEVER, the good news most of the time is you can either "re-thread" or "re-tap" the threaded holes in the barrel to something that will work.

For quite a few decades now, Dixie has sold "oversize" threads and taps for 1/4 x 28 TPI cones. This either to repair a worn threaded holes that size or to change the old threads to something you can get today. Further, though to my knowledge they haven't done this metric thread cones, there now may be a modern metric size that you can find something with a little larger diameter of the threaded portion and then you can re-thread or re-tap the metric holes in the barrel.

The worst such job I ever ran across with such work was there was NO modern made nipple for a Sharps and Hankins 1862 Percussion Navy Breechloading Carbine, as shown below.

http://www.nramuseum.org/guns/the-g...le-shot-breechloading-percussion-carbine.aspx
The main thing the owner wanted replaced was the almost totally rotted little bits and pieces of the leather barrel shroud. (You can see this more clearly in the link above.) Then, "Oh, BTW, the cone needs replaced." Making a replacement leather barrel shroud was difficult enough when no pattern was available, but as it turned out, THAT cone was nothing like almost anything else in the period. I had to make it on a lathe and then harden it four times in a heat treating oven to match the Rockwell Hardness of the original steel cone.

Gus

 

[Feltwad]

The size of sporting gun nipples continental and UK are both 1/4 and 9/32 but the UK are BSF thread and the continental UNF
Feltwad

 

[11Bravo]

Thank you both, now I know I will do all the other tricks to try and remove them for reuse. I'm too old to make a mistake and then realize I got them out easy and I can't get a direct replacement. If there metric I couldn't even make them as my 1946 Logan doesn't do Metric. If they were BSF, grind a 55* cutter and make one, which still wouldn't be easy to get it right.
Wayne

 

[Artificer]

Thank you both, now I know I will do all the other tricks to try and remove them for reuse. I'm too old to make a mistake and then realize I got them out easy and I can't get a direct replacement. If there metric I couldn't even make them as my 1946 Logan doesn't do Metric. If they were BSF, grind a 55* cutter and make one, which still wouldn't be easy to get it right.
Wayne

Something you may not have thought about when trying to remove the old cone/s. IF you have one of the large horizontal freezers, you can try putting just the barrels in it for about four or five hours. Put the barrels in before you eat breakfast and they should be ready after lunch. Then quickly get the barrels in a padded vise and try to remove the old cones. This works off the principal that different size pieces (the cones vs the barrels) warm up at varying degrees and it may be enough to loosen the cones to remove them.

Gus

 

[ohio ramrod]

Another trick is to heat the barrels then put an ice cube on the cones.The sudden shrinkage of the cone will often break loose the rusted threads.

 

[11Bravo]

I don't have the big freezer so my thoughts have been heat the barrels with my heat gun. Then instead of an ice cube use a can of canned air, like used on your keyboard, turn upside down and spray. What you get is real cold refrigerant but please be careful and use heavy gloves and glasses. That will be my next try tomorrow. I have used this at times building bike engines when removing pressed in bushings and races. We shall see tomorrow, fingers crossed.
Wayne

 

[11Bravo]

Report; This morning I removed one cone by heating the barrel to about 225* and hitting the cone with the Freon. I used a 1/4 drive deep well 5/16 socket backwards with a 5/15 allen socket and my smaller cordless impact gun. It came out fine, the other one I'll have to face off the 1/4" end of the socket so it grabs the cone better as the cone is more beat up. Hopefully I'll remove the other and then send the barrels to Bobby Hoyt for sleeves. This one I want to shoot. I haven't checked the threads yet on the removed cone, that I'll do later tonight.

 

[andy52]

I'm working on two Belgian SxSs I've gotten out 3 of 4 of the nipples so far one is still a problem child. I don't know if any modifications have been made to the threads but the ones I've removed are 7mm x 1.00 according to a thread gauge.

 

[Ironoxide]

On my old Belgian muzzleloader (past 1856) everything is (barrel caliber, the nipple) in metric. The original thread of the nipple was massacred by the previous owner. Now that andy52 mentioned it. I think the original thread was 7x1mm. When I got it it had an evidently a (poorly)lathe made nipple with 8x1 mm thread only being held on slightly less than 2 threads. The rest of the nipple thread was so oversize that when I measured it I thought it was 9x1.

In the end I tapped it to 9x1mm and I had to make a custom nipple for it. It is not ideal as if I ever sell it the future owner will need a custom nipple if the one I made becomes unusable.

I was considering various ways of thread repair, but the only one that is high pressure rated is horribly expensive. I also thought about brazing in a smaller metal tube and cutting a standard nipple thread, but in the end I've used my 9x1 threaded nipple to shoot the gun.

Also, I didn't realise one hardens nipples. Is that a good idea? The original barrels I saw(and consequently nipple threads) are made from pretty soft steel. A hardened nipple makes stripping threads in the seat much more probable. A soft nipple will likely limit damage to 50/50.

 

[11Bravo]

I couldn't get my second cone out. It was too badly beat up. I put this project on hold as I still can't find a replacement that thread size. Neither Metric or SAE measures to my tread gauges. OD of the cones threads is 2.60 which is about 6.6mm. Cones should be hardened in my mind, the cap is the cushion when the hammer drops. That is why my 1851 Colt navy nipples are beat to hell. It an original so I figure in the past some kid like playing cowboy with it. Another project down the road.

 

[Ironoxide]

I couldn't get my second cone out. It was too badly beat up. I put this project on hold as I still can't find a replacement that thread size. Neither Metric or SAE measures to my tread gauges. OD of the cones threads is 2.60 which is about 6.6mm. Cones should be hardened in my mind, the cap is the cushion when the hammer drops. That is why my 1851 Colt navy nipples are beat to hell. It an original so I figure in the past some kid like playing cowboy with it. Another project down the road.

Pity about the second one. I have an old military hooked breech rifle that I couldn't unhook at the breech(it basically seized together at a large area) . I asked on another forum and a person advised me to take the whole assembly out of the stock. Take a 1.5l carbonated drink bottle. Cut the bottle in half and fill it with diesel. Then stand the barrel in diesel for few weeks. I also added some acetone and wd40 to this diesel to penetrate better. After two weeks in this the breech unhooked easily with few taps of a brass hammer. I would do the same with your second cone/nipple. It'll not hurt and might help.

As for hardening this is the very first time I hear it. I'm not saying it is wrong to do it. Just surprising. I have few guns with mashed nipples too and they never were shot without a cap. I think I'll make some partially hardened nipples in future. I just need to measure the hammer hardness. I would like the top part of the nipple to be just a bit softer than the hammer and the threads to be completely soft. O1 oil hardening steel could be good for it. It is fairly easy to achieve 45-50 hrc by the eye. One could harden the nipple in oil, then heat the part with threads with a torch so that part anneals while the top remains slightly hardened (45 RC). That would be my ideal.