Compare .50 cal and .54 cal to rifle cartridge's

[Zonie]

Zonie
Love the KP formula.
Is this in the in the charts and useful info section? If not, it should be.

IMO, it is a bit too controversial to be put there. Some folks disagree with the results although most of the hunters that have used patched round balls agree that it shows much more realistic information than the modern high power rifle shooters Ft/Lbs answers are.

While I'm writing this I see I forgot the lowly .45 caliber gun so here are some numbers.

With an 80 grain powder load a .440 diameter prb will have a muzzle velocity of around 1850 fps so, the formula says:
(.440 diameter X 128 grains X 1850 fps)/ 100 = 1042. That makes it about the same as the .30-30's value of 1035.

The catch of it is, the roundball's lose a lot of their velocity rapidly as they fly downrange.

According to my roundball ballistics calculator, that .45 caliber roundball will slow down to about 912 fps at 120 yards. That changes the outcome to a KP of 513, or about the same value as a 9mm luger. That's why I suggest limiting a .45's range to about 80 yards when shooting deer.

 

[rodwha]

I like the Taylor Knock Out calculator as well, but I must say that it dismisses the bullet design. When comparing a WFN bullet from my NMA using TKO shows that at 25 yds I can match the TKO with a .490” ball from a rifle at about 100 yds. The momentum for the .45 is a little higher it doesn’t show that this bullet will create a much larger hole than the .490” ball assuming it hasn’t expanded, which at these velocities shows that it leaves a roughly caliber size hole. On paper it says they’re close to equal but I beg to differ, and the reason why I don’t care to use a ball from my revolvers. But I feel it gives a good picture of what to expect all else being equal.

 

[brazosland]

OP, both calibers do fine on deer. I have both plus three .62s and a Bess carbine. Not much difference in terminal effect from .50 to .62. Only killed a few hogs with the Bess but they acted like they were hit with a 50/54.

Here’s the difference...the larger ball with more mass penetrates better. So for elk, moose, bear or mastodons the .54 will be better than the 50. It’s not so much about shock or wound size as it is about the ability to punch out the other side.

My .40 kills deer just as good (35 yards this weekend) as my others do. My $.02s.

 

[Britsmoothy]

In my humble opinion I have never rated ft/lbs at all in ballistic applications.
It is completely the wrong type of measurement for evaluating anything ballistic wise. A complete red herring!
In my opinion....

 

[Art Caputo]

Caliber/cartridge selection for killing power is an age-old debate that has been around since firearms were invented. The only thing that just about everyone has agreed on is that shot placement is the most critical factor. Even John Taylor, with all his extensive study, reportedly killed the bulk of his countless elephants with a 7mm bullet. While not perfect, and dependent on various variables, I also like to use Taylor’s Knock Out formula...[(V x dia. x Wt) /7000] ....for a more representative comparison of LRB muzzleloader projectiles. I think that drawing an analogy between modern cartridges and the LRB is difficult. The geometry of the roundball is a constant, and while the ballistic coefficient increases with caliber, it is far less then the variations in modern projectile shape. With practical charge levels for each caliber, by 100 yards the velocity, trajectory and the wind drift gap closes, regardless of the LRB diameter and you are left with bullet weight and diameter as your primary variables. At 100 yards, under comparable conditions of shot placement and type of game, the larger ball will deliver more damage. Just based on my personal observations , I like to have a Taylor Knock Out Value of at least “10” at the point of impact of a whitetail. Just about all deer I have ever shot with LRB have been under 125 yards with most under 50. This is a chart that I created showing the Taylor values(TKO) for a few on my optimized LRB loads of different calibers.. Just for comparison, using the TKO formula, my favorite modern rifle(.264cal) has a TKO of “10” at 1000 yards.....the effect of bullet shape and high retained velocity. My 30-30 Winchester (with a good expanding bullet) has a TKO of ‘10”, at 150 yards.....about the same as my 50cal LRB at 100 yards. With all this, I must admit that for hunting deer in the NE forests, I have never felt under-gunned carrying an accurate 45Cal. rifle.

 

[scooter3844]

In my experience, not alot but some, I've killed deer with a .45 and a .50. both were pass through at 100yds. I do have a .54 but haven't had the opportunity to shoot a deer with it yet. As with anything it is more shot placement than anything else. The .50 caused more damage than the 45. The .54 will cause more damage than the .50. The .50 is an all around hunting rifle. It will take elk, whitetail or mule deer. I've seen it take Moose and caribou on different television shows. I think its Jim Shockey that uses a .50 for most of his hunts. It does just fine. I live in Indiana and have killed multiple deer with the .50.

 

[Walkingeagle]

Jim Shockey does not use traditional arms nor projectiles however!
No matter, as I’ve, along with many others whom actually have experience using both, explained in previous posts above, both will work so your choice is personal preference.
Walk

 

[Spikebuck]

I've used .50, .54, .58, and .62. I've used PRB and Conical in the .50 and .54...just PRB in the .58 and .62. Here's my conclusion...if you hit them correctly, they are dead. I'm a lung shooter, not high shoulder, so mine usually run....some 30 yards....some 100 yards. I've had a couple fall over, but the shots were a little higher. Don't ask me why some go farther, but they are all dead at the end of the blood trail.

As far as "knock down" power...I have all of Brian Beckum's Flintlock hunting videos and recommend them. 95% of his deer hunting in the videos is with a .50 caliber shooting 80 grs of 2F and PRB. In some videos he goes for lungs....most deer run off leaving a good blood trail and are found under 90 yards away. But on one video, he and his hunting friend do nothing but take the high-shoulder shot. Every deer dropped in it's tracks with that shot.

So net to me...it's not as much about caliber (assuming it's at least "enough" for the distance to target), as it is about shot placement and knowing limitations. To worry about .50 vs .54 or .50 vs .62, for that matter, is brain power wasted on deer sized targets. Get what you want that fits all your objectives best (and the laws) and go have fun. A big part of this game is getting away from all the technical mumbo-jumbo and just enjoying.

 

[Walkingeagle]

I've used .50, .54, .58, and .62. I've used PRB and Conical in the .50 and .54...just PRB in the .58 and .62. Here's my conclusion...if you hit them correctly, they are dead. I'm a lung shooter, not high shoulder, so mine usually run....some 30 yards....some 100 yards. I've had a couple fall over, but the shots were a little higher. Don't ask me why some go farther, but they are all dead at the end of the blood trail.

As far as "knock down" power...I have all of Brian Beckum's Flintlock hunting videos and recommend them. 95% of his deer hunting in the videos is with a .50 caliber shooting 80 grs of 2F and PRB. In some videos he goes for lungs....most deer run off leaving a good blood trail and are found under 90 yards away. But on one video, he and his hunting friend do nothing but take the high-shoulder shot. Every deer dropped in it's tracks with that shot.

So net to me...it's not as much about caliber (assuming it's at least "enough" for the distance to target), as it is about shot placement and knowing limitations. To worry about .50 vs .54 or .50 vs .62, for that matter, is brain power wasted on deer sized targets. Get what you want that fits all your objectives best (and the laws) and go have fun. A big part of this game is getting away from all the technical mumbo-jumbo and just enjoying.

I’ve read somewhere that the distance travelled after a lung shot is due to many reasons, but one is whether the animal has just inhaled or exhaled (how much oxygen is in the bloodstream), along with the mental state of the animal (stressed, on edge, relaxed, etc).
Walk

 

[Spikebuck]

I’ve read somewhere that the distance travelled after a lung shot is due to many reasons, but one is whether the animal has just inhaled or exhaled (how much oxygen is in the bloodstream), along with the mental state of the animal (stressed, on edge, relaxed, etc).
Walk

When I think about it, two of the large Minnesota bucks I've killed that only went 20 - 30 yards after a lung hit where both chasing does prior to being shot...so I suspect that all the running may have also had their blood more depleted of oxygen than if they had not been doing that activity.

But, I've also always believed that this is a game of sometimes fractions of an inch...did you clip that artery or not type of thing.

And I think some animals are just more tenacious than others. I had a large doe in Iowa that I shot with a big zwickey broadhead on an angling away shot that went in at the last rib on one side and exited out of her "arm-pit" on the other side putting a big hole in the diaphragm clipping one lung and solid through the other. I've shot other deer like that and they don't go far at all...many times only a few feet. This one ended up nicknamed "The Iron B1tch" because she just did not want to give up the ghost. Got her after she dove into the Upper Iowa River and the cold water filled her chest cavity, but it always amazes me how some animals are just a lot tougher than others. BTW...she made me wade across in chest deep water in late November to retrieve her, which also attributed to the "B" in her nickname!

 

[MSW]

fwiw, i'd go with the .54

one guys opinion: free and no doubt well worth the cost

 

[Rifleman1776]

As others have said, this is a game unto itself. You can't compare round ball with modern stuff.
I'm a believer in the .45 for deer as a great caliber. All the ml deer I have taken were with the .45 prb. My wife also. The bigger calibers will ruin more meat. BTW, my charge was 65 gr. real bp. Going beyond that does much more unacceptable bloodshot damage to the meat.

 

[hanshi]

I'm with Nate (Britsmoothy) on this subject. I do not accept any of these formula comparing prb with centerfire, energy dump, knockdown values, etc. I've killed many, many deer with .45, .50, 54 and .62 with most being with the .45. I've had at least the same proportion of DRTs with just the .45 as with the centerfires. A sporting rifle doesn't "knock" deer down; otherwise it would knock the shooter down as well. Muzzleloaders included. With prb just forget energy dump, energy numbers, hydrostatic shock and start thinking "catastrophic engine damage". In the "uncounted" numbers of deer I've killed the most impressive - read that gruesome - wounds I've seen were from the simple .45 & .50 prb. Bigger is not necessarily better, just bigger. Worrying about energy figures and comparisons is excessive overthinking, IMHO. If I want to judge my rifle's effectiveness, I look at the deer on the ground and not at some energy/momentum/knockdown value tables.

 

[tenngun]

I would however point out that balls lose velocity in very short range. A .54 at 1700 fps will be in the 1100 fps range at a hundred yards, same with a ‘fast’ .50
I feel real comfortable with a smoothie at fifty yards, because almost all my deer taken with a rifle was well in smoothie range.
Will a ball kill at longer range, ask Tim Murphy.
But I stay close. Don’t shoot till you see the whites of their eyes may be a bit exaggerated and deer don’t have much of a white but the sentiment is good.
Get close get meat.

 

[tenngun]

In my humble opinion I have never rated ft/lbs at all in ballistic applications.
It is completely the wrong type of measurement for evaluating anything ballistic wise. A complete red herring!
In my opinion....

I agree, foot pounds is a make believe number.
A foot pound is the energy required to lift one pound one foot against one g.
So if you had a steel plate that weighed one pound and you shot it with a thousand f/p ball it should lift it 1000 feet in the air. Or a thousand pound plate one foot in the air. Won’t happen. All that energy will make a dimple in the plate and turn the ball in to a pan cake.
What counts at ml velocity is mostly tearing a hole and shocking the nerves.
Keep in mind the energy of the ball is the same energy hitting the breech plug, but we absorb it with the weight of the gun and the size of the butt.
Game dies from bleeding, and uncontrolled shock response to the games system. Not from ft lbs.

 

[Danny Ross]

A Dead right there shot usually affects the spinal column above thoracic (chest cavity) of the deer. The impact doesn't have to hit the spine, but the force of the shot does. Shot a good size buck with a 12ga slug dropped in its tracks didn't hit the spine, it hit high shoulder the impact shock disrupted the central nervous system. Watched a friend of mine shoot a large doe with a 54 roundball the shot was about 70yds. When the round ball hit at impact the deer instantly was turned 180 degrees and I saw the ball bounce off the ground well beyond the deer. That doe was with others and they took off across the slate pond we were all standing in. The shot doe turned back around and ran with them. She ran every bit of 120yds and up the steep embankment. that surrounded the slate pond. At the top of it she stopped and wavered then slid part way down the embankment. The hole through the center of her lungs was bigger around than my thumb and I have pretty good size hands, I shot a deer through the liver at 30yds with a 50 roundball, it went 10-15 yds and fell over dead. The point of all of this is there is no control of what the deer is going to do when it is hit, no matter what the size of the round is, or how much energy it hits with. Both 50 and 54 work very well. Shot in the chest cavity the animal is going to die, shot placement in the chest cavity may have something to with its travel (?), but how far it goes after it is shot will depend on the deer. DANNY

 

[Sparkitoff]

I'm going with a 30-30 (50) vs. 35 Rem (54). Slight weight and energy advantage with the heavier, larger diameter projectile.

 

[SDSmlf]

Might as well ask for the comparison chart to include different types of arrows and broad heads, draw poundages and arrow weights. Pretty much the same line of thinking.

 

[griffiga]

More lead means more inertia.
Ball is a crappy projectile, when it goes supersonic it dumps velocity at an alarming rate.
A .50 weighed about 180 grains, a 54 about 220. Those forty grains help maintain the original velocity a little longer. So it can give a touch more umph at range.
Most early plains guns cr 1825 were in the .50 range, by ten years later about .54 became more common. They shot longer range on bigger game, but a .54 turns out two shots to an ounce of lead and I’ve often wondered if it was just accounting
White tail and Blacktail are not usually real big and a .50 or even .45 are great in most wooded ranges. A mule deer that can run bigger and shot at longer range might be a little better served with the extra energy at range of a .54
90% of the discussion is ‘the gun I use’.

Hunting with a round ball, your practical outside range is 100 yards, preferably 75. Looking at a .490-.495, 180 to 185 grain ball at 1900 FPS your energy is around 1450 ft lbs of energy. In contrast to a .530-.535, 220 grain ball going 1700 FPS, your energy is actually about 100 ft lbs less. Trajectory out to 100 yards with the .490 is a bit flatter. About the only advantage of the .54 is a slightly bigger hole. But since when is a half inch hole small? Nothing wrong with a .50 when hunting with round ball. Moving to chronicles, it’s a different story.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Hunting with a round ball, your practical outside range is 100 yards, preferably 75. Looking at a .490-.495, 180 to 185 grain ball at 1900 FPS your energy is around 1450 ft lbs of energy. In contrast to a .530-.535, 220 grain ball going 1700 FPS, your energy is actually about 100 ft lbs less. Trajectory out to 100 yards with the .490 is a bit flatter. About the only advantage of the .54 is a slightly bigger hole. But since when is a half inch hole small? Nothing wrong with a .50 when hunting with round ball. Moving to chronicles, it’s a different story.

1st or 2and Chronicals?