Combination Guns: When Two Heads Are NOT Better Than One

[TobJohn]

Combination guns are notable for two things: their impracticality and being just about the raddest weapons ever invented. It’s the idea of trying to solve two tasks with one one tool, and doing both poorly.

One of my favorite sayings is “there are no bad ideas in brainstorming”. It applies perfectly to early gunpowder weapons, when every idea was tried. Combination weapons take this a step further with “wouldn’t it be cool if we combined melee weapon ‘x’ with gun type ‘y’”. The joke of the brainstorming quote is there were obviously MANY bad ideas.

My personal favorite:

Pukka’s comment that inspired me to start this thread:

A video on a gun axe. It’s a dog lock, so technically a pre (true) flintlock


If anyone has any other images, or actually own any, please share.

 

[APG]

Wow. That will get the job done. Pretty much any job by the looks of it.

 

[TobJohn]

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/21963

When you need to hack, shoot, and remember important dates.

 

[TobJohn]

A gun halberd that looks like it could be out of DND or Warhammer.

Wheellock combination halberd and double-barrelled pistol - By B. A Highly decorated - Royal Armouries collections

 

[Pukka Bundook]

I think this one was shown by Michael, but may be wrong. he didn't own this piece John.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Its sort of multiple threats, but some to the shooter if you didn't know your onions when using it!

 

[TobJohn]

he didn't own this piece John.

One of the few, it seemed. I appreciate his posts that go something like “this is my “x”. There is one other “x” in “y” museum, but it isn’t as nice”. I think I saw that in the thread on those goofy German arquebuses that have super flared muzzles, short barrels, and stocks that have a super long length of pull.

This one is really cool because you can compare it to the Tuscan snap lock tour he did (which I believe yours is based on?) and then the gunsmith just went completely overboard. I’m not sure what the game plan is for those rear facing spare chambers and pans haha

 

[oldwood]

Gotta love m/l stocks w/ worm holes.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Yes John, I'm excited you see the family likeness in the above multi-barreled piece, and the Tusco-Emilian snaplock, Michael had, and even the "Mary Rose" guns from a slightly later period. They all seem from the same workshop!

Maybe ergoty bread sent this gunsmith into a sort of tailspin...
Maybe the upside -down pans on the rear facing tubes was to help ward off sparks....
swords, crossbows and all sorts of mashers come with gonne barrels too...

 

[TobJohn]

Yes John, I'm excited you see the family likeness in the above multi-barreled piece, and the Tusco-Emilian snaplock, Michael had, and even the "Mary Rose" guns from a slightly later period. They all seem from the same workshop!

Maybe ergoty bread sent this gunsmith into a sort of tailspin...
Maybe the upside -down pans on the rear facing tubes was to help ward off sparks....
swords, crossbows and all sorts of mashers come with gonne barrels too...

The line between creativity and madness can be very thin.

Crossbow with a gonne barrel??? I have not seen any of those and they sound fascinating. Do you know of an example?

 

[TobJohn]

Yes John, I'm excited you see the family likeness in the above multi-barreled piece, and the Tusco-Emilian snaplock, Michael had, and even the "Mary Rose" guns from a slightly later period. They all seem from the same workshop!

I am in the very early stages of brainstorming how to build a primitive snapping arquebus, so I was looking at that thread for some ideas on ramrod placement. Those are later than what I am planning, but good for inspiration.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

The "Very fineTusco Emilian " I copied is a good one John. Nice and early, 1520's....
and a grand Dudley of a chap to fire. Accurate too.
Have a barrel made for another, but may finish it differently.

Dudley, after Colin Willock's Jack Russel... small, but a take on anything type!

Or are you thinking earlier than the 1520's?

 

[Pukka Bundook]

John,
I can look for the differing multiple threat weapons, and yes, have seen a gonne/crossbow but do not ask me where right now!
If you can get hold of the book"The Great Guns" by Harold L Peterson and Robert Ellman, there is a chapter on Multiple threats.
You will see Henry V111 gun shields. There used to be 18 If I remeber right, in the Tower of London. Matchlock pistols mounted into shields, and breech loading of course!
plus, his Holy Water Sprinkler, V similar to the one you show above, plus all kinds of matchlock rests with match or wheellock guns attached. wheellock battle aces of a type maybe more practical then the one in the OP.
No crossbows there though!

Got to look through RPG's Crossbow book when time permits!

 

[TobJohn]

The "Very fineTusco Emilian " I copied is a good one John. Nice and early, 1520's....
and a grand Dudley of a chap to fire. Accurate too.
Have a barrel made for another, but may finish it differently.

Dudley, after Colin Willock's Jack Russel... small, but a take on anything type!

Or are you thinking earlier than the 1520's?

Based on the photos I have seen you post, yours is a real work of art and does justice to the original!

Because I am still new to all of this, I was thinking something much simpler. My idea is a piece heavily based off one of these:

Museum examples:
Arquebuse à mèche | Musées d'art et d'histoire de Genève
Handbüchse (W492) | Objektkatalog

I have seen these dated as early as the 1470s(suspicious), and as late as the 1520s.

My plan for the barrel is a .56 smoothbore straight octagon. These were originally bronze and without barrel tangs, but I am going to make a concession to practicality and mount mine following the technique for longrifles. I believe the example on CapnBall was a similar idea.

I think I have the lock figured out, without forging, so the main remaining hurdle is figuring out how to make a powder pan. I saw Michael say they were often dovetailed, so I would do that, but I still need to figure out how to make the piece with hand tools.

My dad is mailing me his drawknife from his shop, so I have that tool covered haha.

 

[TobJohn]

John,
I can look for the differing multiple threat weapons, and yes, have seen a gonne/crossbow but do not ask me where right now!
If you can get hold of the book"The Great Guns" by Harold L Peterson and Robert Ellman, there is a chapter on Multiple threats.
You will see Henry V111 gun shields. There used to be 18 If I remeber right, in the Tower of London. Matchlock pistols mounted into shields, and breech loading of course!
plus, his Holy Water Sprinkler, V similar to the one you show above, plus all kinds of matchlock rests with match or wheellock guns attached. wheellock battle aces of a type maybe more practical then the one in the OP.
No crossbows there though!

Got to look through RPG's Crossbow book when time permits!

https://collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-3285.html

One of the fascinating features of the gun shields is that they are the closest weapon I have seen to a matchlock pistol in Europe.

The original combination gun axe/hammer I posted was definitely an exercise in the gunsmith showing off and assumingly not intended to see a battlefield.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Two great posts, and I will be back to reply ASAP!
Been a busy day.
Edited to add this link John. Its not another M-L forum so should be alright!

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/how-was-caliber-of-swedish-muskets-determined.1208562/
Its a musket a pal in Finland is building. It is much more modern than what you are thinking about, but ifyou go to about the last page, you will see how Martti dovetailed the pan.
He is doing a Fantastic job on this build. Incredible patience, and I hope it inspires you!

The ones you show would make a great gun!
Let us see all the details when you get cracking.
The locks to me say 1520's. I don't think any earlier really.
You can do most anything with hand tools if you have those. (See Martti's pan he made with simple tools.)
Miy pan interieor is round, but so was the original. A big old drill bit with his nose rounded will do for the pan interior.
Better not say more and pollute your combination thread further!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Great photos from the Royal Armouries John!
You can see how the pistol fits into that shield very nicely.
I think some of the shields had a sighting slit above the pistol.
It would give you a real keggie if it got loose on firing!

 

[TobJohn]

Great photos from the Royal Armouries John!
You can see how the pistol fits into that shield very nicely.
I think some of the shields had a sighting slit above the pistol.
It would give you a real keggie if it got loose on firing!

They have a bunch of different ones on their digital collection. Some have a little grate and others have a hatch to aim through. Amongst combination weapons, they are probably the best example of something that sounds obvious to try, and then doesn’t work out at all.

Gun shield Centre gun type - Royal Armouries collections

 

[TobJohn]

Two great posts, and I will be back to reply ASAP!
Been a busy day.
Edited to add this link John. Its not another M-L forum so should be alright!

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/how-was-caliber-of-swedish-muskets-determined.1208562/
Its a musket a pal in Finland is building. It is much more modern than what you are thinking about, but ifyou go to about the last page, you will see how Martti dovetailed the pan.
He is doing a Fantastic job on this build. Incredible patience, and I hope it inspires you!

The ones you show would make a great gun!
Let us see all the details when you get cracking.
The locks to me say 1520's. I don't think any earlier really.
You can do most anything with hand tools if you have those. (See Martti's pan he made with simple tools.)
Miy pan interieor is round, but so was the original. A big old drill bit with his nose rounded will do for the pan interior.
Better not say more and pollute your combination thread further!

Yeah, that time estimate makes more sense than 1470. That would have put it before the serpentine handgonnes/arquebuses illustrated in Amtliche Berner Chronik.

That link is very helpful, thank you! I will need to consult it frequently. A rounded drill bit is a great idea and very manageable. If I have some follow up questions, is it alright if I PM you?

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Indeed John!
It Is a wonderful old archaic world back here before the true flintlock and percussion!
what wonders to explore!