Colt 1860 Vs Remington New Model

[Stantheman86]

Yeah I was shocked how loaded the internet is with felons carrying black powder pistols. It is kind of one of those things that in a way I wish they would just shut up about as that is what our lovely governing body will use to further regulate antique firearms. Once they start learning about conversion cylinders and that Goon's Gun Works guy hopping these bad boys up, then the AFT will have a hay day....lol

I honestly cringe whenever I see any of this garbage with felons on YouTube talking about carrying cap and ballers , all like "you can get them shipped right to your door, and get a conversion cylinder!"

I'm like if the day ever comes when the ATF classifies muzzleloaders as licensed firearms a LOT of people are going to be PO'd to the Max. I honestly don't think the ATF is worried about "antique" firearms though , that is very low on the list for them. Trying to "regulate" front stuffers would be impossible now, plus it would destroy Pietta , Uberti and Pedersoli's business because the average gun buyer isn't getting a NICS check for a $200 Pietta .36 Navy, they won't bother. And these companies are owned by bigger companies like Stoeger and Beretta that make "campaign contributions "

The main reason NJ regulates them is because that state is like California and the few others that require a license or background check for cap and ball revolvers, they just blanket everything including pellet guns in NJ. Plus someone shot a gas station attendant in the 1970s with a cap and ball revolver in NJ so they decided you couldn't just buy them anymore.

 

[GYJ]

The ATF can't do that. Those regulations are all codified in federal law.

 

[Stantheman86]

The ATF can't do that. Those regulations are all codified in federal law.

Trying to repeal the whole "any firearm produced before 1898 is an Antique and not a firearm and/ or any firearm using obsolete ammunition not readily available or any firearm loaded from the muzzle using non fixed ammunition " will never happen .

Still, I'm sure in the back of our minds we're thinking, let one oxygen thief idiot go into his ex-wifes house with a belt full of cap and ballers, and start blasting and it will draw the "we need to close this loophole!" People, but I don't want to derail this thread that I'm enjoying going on 20 pages and make the mods shut it down

Certain states chose to have restrictions which baffles me how NJ can over ride the ATF but that's a whole different topic . Also no C&R licenses in NJ either

 

[Horse]

I wish I had a dollar for every time someone says "They cant do that".
I remember years ago when some guys I shot muzzleloaders with in NJ. said to me:
"They can't do that to us! It's against the constitution! Besides their only after the modern guns, not our antique style black powder guns ".
Then they just did it. Easy as that. They want to shut down America's gun culture and that includes muzzleloaders. It's not about crime and never was.

 

[Stantheman86]

I wish I had a dollar for every time someone says "They cant do that".
I remember years ago when some guys I shot muzzleloaders with in NJ. said to me:
"They can't do that to us! It's against the constitution! Besides their only after the modern guns, not our antique style black powder guns ".
Then they just did it. Easy as that. They want to shut down America's gun culture and that includes muzzleloaders. It's not about crime and never was.

It slowly began with the crippling restrictions on real Black Powder to the point where most dealers gave up that part of their FFL, because it was too much hassle

My dealer said he used to sell blackpowder as a courtesy to hunters during muzzleloader season, for a couple bucks he'd give you a foam coffee cup full of Goex because guys just needed enough to load up for the field. No one cared. Then the ATF started cracking down on it. They don't seem to care about subs.

They don't have to go after our cap and ballers if they just cut off supplies of what we need to shoot them . And then we're left with wall hangers

Also look at what our friends overseas have to go through, in cases like , any firearm with rifling needs a permit and it's a long waiting period, you have to be a "licensed collector " to own a muzzleloader, even an original, and cap and ball revolvers are subject to tight restrictions

I just hope the day doesn't come when we're talking about how "we used to just buy them at a sporting goods store or on the internet "

I do believe NJ tightened up on muzzleloading pistols because of that shooting. I also grew up in NJ and with the Long Gun Permit you could pretty much buy whatever besides non-compliant semi autos and plenty of muzzleloaders and bolt action rifles were sold in face to face deals. I bought a Mosin Nagant from a guy at a gun club in a legal face to face , because you just had to "reasonably believe the buyer is of sound mind "

 

[Stantheman86]

I feel it's a state by state type thing and the ATF honestly isn't wasting already overstretched manpower and resources going after percussion revolvers and blackpowder unless something really crazy happens

And even then, they're not going to be able to "seize" millions of revolvers that were sold over the counter from the 1950s to now, go after guys who make their own BP, and then ban plastic toy caps and all sources of lead . It would be a diminishing return, they're worried about straw sales, dirty FFL dealers and illegal street guns

I used to have a C&R until I let it lapse because I never used it.....in over 10 years I never got audited or inspected. The ATF isn't wasting agents time to check on a dude who bought an Enfield .303 and a Japanese Arisaka on GunBroker

 

[Horse]

T

I feel it's a state by state type thing and the ATF honestly isn't wasting already overstretched manpower and resources going after percussion revolvers and blackpowder unless something really crazy happens

And even then, they're not going to be able to "seize" millions of revolvers that were sold over the counter from the 1950s to now, go after guys who make their own BP, and then ban plastic toy caps and all sources of lead . It would be a diminishing return, they're worried about straw sales, dirty FFL dealers and illegal street guns

I used to have a C&R until I let it lapse because I never used it.....in over 10 years I never got audited or inspected. The ATF isn't wasting agents time to check on a dude who bought an Enfield .303 and a Japanese Arisaka on GunBroker

They won't need to seize them. They will make mere ownership a high felony with long mandatory prison sentences in which the judge has no discretion for possession. Few people will take the chance of prison time and loss of family, home and bank account. Former New Jersey citizens are sitting in prison now for having a banned firearm that was discovered by chance because of a fire in their home or a police search for a minor distuurbance in their home and a neighbor called to report it. What good is a gun that is so dangerous to possess that it must be hidden even from your closest friends and family.

 

[Stantheman86]

T

They won't need to seize them. They will make mere ownership a high felony with long mandatory prison sentences in which the judge has no discretion for possession. Few people will take the chance of prison time and loss of family, home and bank account. Former New Jersey citizens are sitting in prison now for having a banned firearm that was discovered by chance because of a fire in their home or a police search for a minor distuurbance in their home and a neighbor called to report it. What good is a gun that is so dangerous to possess that it must be hidden even from your closest friends and family.

This reminds me of the stories I've heard recently where an old WWII, Korean War or even Vietnam vet had to be moved out of their house, or passed away and the family finds a Grease Gun wrapped in an oily T-Shirt in a closet or a gun safe full of stuff like reactivated Sten guns with muffler pipe receivers , all like "well, ok this is illegal "

 

[M. De Land]

I honestly cringe whenever I see any of this garbage with felons on YouTube talking about carrying cap and ballers , all like "you can get them shipped right to your door, and get a conversion cylinder!"

I'm like if the day ever comes when the ATF classifies muzzleloaders as licensed firearms a LOT of people are going to be PO'd to the Max. I honestly don't think the ATF is worried about "antique" firearms though , that is very low on the list for them.

I've started making bows and arrow points in the last five years personally ! Keeps me in gun flints and if necessary arrows.

 

[Stantheman86]

I've started making bows and arrow points in the last five years personally ! Keeps me in gun flints and if necessary arrows.

This is the kind of thread that makes me want to go to Cabelas and buy a .44 Sheriff snubby with cash, oil it up, wrap it in 5 Hefty bags along with 2lbs of 3f, 300 lead balls and 300 caps, seal it in ammo can and bury it in an extremely unknown spot that only I can find

 

[Stantheman86]

But anyway, before we get shut down, I just want to add that I think the ghosts of Sam Colt and Mr Remington would be amused that we are still arguing over the superiority of revolver designs that are almost 180 years old

We have satellites that can see us from space and we're talking about the reliability in combat of a gun design from 1836, I love this stuff

 

[Stantheman86]

I think the availability of "Match grade" barrels figures in the mix somewhat. The Remington platform lends itself to installation of aftermarket barrels ( like Pedersoli ). Barrel assemblies for Colt would be rather expensive I suspect.
How many of the top tier shooters are shooting with "box stock" or non aftermarket barrels?

Maybe "Match Grade" liners are an option for the open-top ?

Mike

I'd wager very very few to none of the Remingtons used by guys who actually win matches have stock barrels

If you put a precision match barrel on a repro Remington, chamfered and uniform chambers , caps from the same lot, load off the gun, having a chance to wipe the gun out during loading , using "pet loads" carefully worked up and swaged round balls sorted by exact weight , the use of that gun is so far outside the original design and intent that it's almost not even comparable in a Colt vs Remington debate. It is a Match revolver based on the Remington "platform " at that point, to remain compliant.

It's a whole different Planet than a redneck like me shooting a Uberti 1858 I just pulled out of the box with some Schuetzen I dumped in the chambers, round balls I got from a weird guy at a gun show who casts in an abandoned trailer from lead he found at a dump, topped with Crisco I found in the garage and popping away

 

[M. De Land]

I'd wager very very few to none of the Remingtons used by guys who actually win matches have stock barrels

If you put a precision match barrel on a repro Remington, chamfered and uniform chambers , caps from the same lot, load off the gun, having a chance to wipe the gun out during loading , using "pet loads" carefully worked up and swaged round balls sorted by exact weight , the use of that gun is so far outside the original design and intent that it's almost not even comparable in a Colt vs Remington debate. It is a Match revolver based on the Remington "platform " at that point, to remain compliant.

It's a whole different Planet than a redneck like me shooting a Uberti 1858 I just pulled out of the box with some Schuetzen I dumped in the chambers, round balls I got from a weird guy at a gun show who casts in an abandoned trailer from lead he found at a dump, topped with Crisco I found in the garage and popping away

I've not found swaged balls any more accurate then the ones I cast myself in rifle or hand gun. I've competed against some pretty good revolver and pistol shots regularly and except for a trigger job most all of them are using stock guns. Most of them are ROAs or Remington reproductions in the revolver game. The single shot pistols is where one runs into a lot of custom stuff in my experience.

 

[GalvanizedYankee]

I own both, and cool points go to the Colt. However, when you empty your revolver at some advancing Yankees, and you still have a couple more to dispatch, it is a nice option with the Remington, to be able to drop the empty cylinder,insert a fresh loaded one, and get back in the fight. Just my humble opinion.
(Yes, it says "GalvanizedYankee", because at some events, I will portray a Union soldier when there just aint enough of them)

 

[dylan84]

On and off today I worked on both my Piettas. My Slixshots came in for the NMA and I messed with the action further on my 1860 Army.

The NMA still blows caps to smithereens and jams up. Otherwise it shoots great! Was using 25 grains of black powder with a fiber wad and lube under the ball. I am thinking at this point that the hammer is hitting the caps too hard. I don't see any reason that the hammer should hit the nipples without a cap installed and it does. Maybe start messing with the hammer.

The 1860 was shooting awesome yesterday and then all of a sudden the action started jamming up. I had shortened the hand to work better with a conversion cylinder that I had and it was too short for the black powder cylinder I guess. Still don't really know what happened for sure. This evening I tore it back down and built the hand up with weld and reshaped it. Got it working well but then I couldn't get it to fully cock! Back to the drawing board.

I ended up shortening the trigger a little bit and now the timing is much better. 3 nice clicks. I used a stone to shorten the trigger held up square with a piece of square key stock. It seems through hardened so it should be fine. It is actually a little stiffer trigger pull now but I'm ok with that. Will have to keep an eye on that if it wears weird. It was also peening the indexing cuts in the cylinder so I did a little fitting there but the main problem was the spring was so tight. I loosened the bolt spring leaf slightly by bending it up. I can see why people go to wrapped wire springs!

Anyway the 1800's engineering is still interesting and I will say that Colt had me baffled there for awhile. I guess keep shooting and keep tinkering.

I never changed nipples on the Colt and it has not cap jammed to date. The NMA is the cap jammer and everyone says they don't!

 

[Stantheman86]

On and off today I worked on both my Piettas. My Slixshots came in for the NMA and I messed with the action further on my 1860 Army.

The NMA still blows caps to smithereens and jams up. Otherwise it shoots great! Was using 25 grains of black powder with a fiber wad and lube under the ball. I am thinking at this point that the hammer is hitting the caps too hard. I don't see any reason that the hammer should hit the nipples without a cap installed and it does. Maybe start messing with the hammer.

The 1860 was shooting awesome yesterday and then all of a sudden the action started jamming up. I had shortened the hand to work better with a conversion cylinder that I had and it was too short for the black powder cylinder I guess. Still don't really know what happened for sure. This evening I tore it back down and built the hand up with weld and reshaped it. Got it working well but then I couldn't get it to fully cock! Back to the drawing board.

I ended up shortening the trigger a little bit and now the timing is much better. 3 nice clicks. I used a stone to shorten the trigger held up square with a piece of square key stock. It seems through hardened so it should be fine. It is actually a little stiffer trigger pull now but I'm ok with that. Will have to keep an eye on that if it wears weird. It was also peening the indexing cuts in the cylinder so I did a little fitting there but the main problem was the spring was so tight. I loosened the bolt spring leaf slightly by bending it up. I can see why people go to wrapped wire springs!

Anyway the 1800's engineering is still interesting and I will say that Colt had me baffled there for awhile. I guess keep shooting and keep tinkering.

I never changed nipples on the Colt and it has not cap jammed to date. The NMA is the cap jammer and everyone says they don't!

The hammer touches the nipple on every one of my percussion revolvers. Apparently the originals didn't do this, I'm not 100% sure.

Cap jams were a problem in the original period but less so, because I believe, they were made of copper and were hotter, being Mercuric. They fragmented and fell clear of the gun better than the brass caps today, which stay more intact. The Colt hammer was more rounded than repro hammers and not as prone to "cap sucking " which drops them in between the hammer and frame. Still, I'm sure all the flicking and pointing guns upward when cocking was done for a reason.

I had cap jams in my 1858 the other day, they did not fall off the nipples and just kind of jammed themselves into the recoil shield.

The best revolver I own as far as being cap jam proof is my Pietta Dance & Brother, having no recoil shield all that manure just falls free. In fact it occasionally will throw a busted cap into your face, but it's better than jamming into the recoil shield.

I believe most of the issues we see with these guns is way more apparent with our current use of our repros, because even the original Colts were rarely fired more than 2 or 3 cylinders, with the nitrate cartridges using lighter charges of a powder in between 3 and 4f. We like to go to the range and blast off 50-100 rounds of 30gr loads of 3f because we're having fun. Then the guns get gummy and we have to wipe them out.

This issue is just way more apparent in most of the 1858s which fouled up quicker back then but would usually make it to shot number 12 without a problem

I've fired 50+ rounds through most of my Colt repros , often with no lube on the chambers before having to wipe them out.

The people who "shoot all day" with 1858s must be doing something right or just have especially well broken in or slightly "sloppier" guns because my 1858 gagged before I was done with the 2nd cylinder.

 

[Robby]

This is the kind of thread that makes me want to go to Cabelas and buy a .44 Sheriff snubby with cash, oil it up, wrap it in 5 Hefty bags along with 2lbs of 3f, 300 lead balls and 300 caps, seal it in ammo can and bury it in an extremely unknown spot that only I can find

PVC works much better, leave a map for the Grandkids.
Robby