cleaning, bore butter, oil....

[Jac Spring]

Well, before I came here, in preparation of shooting my ml, I read an article by Ross Seyfried in Handloader Mag April, 2001 - No. 210 to be exact entitled "Muzzle Loaders, the Original Handloaders stick to the basics". Basically, Ross recommends the following: when you first get your ml, clean with warm water and a little dish soap - plunger method followed by just plain hot water - dry thouroughly and then finish with multiple swabs of bore butter. He then goes on to say that you needn't use the water again if you shoot regularly unless readying for a hunting trip or at the end of your season or if you get excessive fouling and then to use just warm water - no soap followed by the bore butter. He recommends for normal cleaning to just use powder solvent and a brush/swabs to clean the fouling and then finish with the bore butter - speaks of seasoning the bore. He says not to use oil at all. Further, he recommends caliber sized lubed wads under patched balls that push easily down the bore and cites the ffg for 50+ and fffg for 45 and under - accept that fffg can work well with rb's only in the larger bores. He also says that using the wads, you don't need to swab/clean between shots, that the lube keeps things soft. For those not familiar with Mr. Seyfried, he is very experienced with all manor of muzzle loading firearms and had done extensive research and hunted all manor of game with them. He starts the story talking about two camps - the traditional American and the modern (inlines, "fake" powder, sabots, etc.). Basically says they are both wrong and what he is advocating is the true "way" and that muzzle loading needn't be hard or complicated. I'm not really doing the article complete justice, but that's basically it.

OK - then, I come here and read that you should use the water after every time you shoot, that the bore steel does not season and that tight balls are good and many say to oil the bore after cleaning. Of course, this is from many different people, so I'm not trying to single anyone out.

I'm also not trying to start a "war" - just commenting on the disparity - I like Ross Seyfried and enjoyed his articles for the many years he was published in Handloader and Rifle (I keep the back issues for reference). He always seemed to make sense to me and I've found everything that he's suggested, that I've been able to "test" to be true. Ross is very opinionated and I know from reading his stuff that he does not cater to advertisers - hard to believe you are reading slams against stuff advertised in the very magazine where his article is because writers are usually, well more diplomatic.

So, he's full of baloney? Or is he right and I'm just seeing the traditional American camp's side here? Or is it that there's truth on both sides and its a matter of style?

Again, not trying to start a fight, but I think a discussion of this would further our (my) understanding of this ml stuff. :winking:

 

[playfarmers]

I think he is full of it. I used to use Bore Butter and had it build up on me, even though I cleaned with hot soapy water. My accuracy went south, and it took several hours of scubbing with a brass brush and WD40 to get it all out. I clean my rifle after every day of shooting, and that is what I will stick with. I would not want a used rifle from anyone that dosen't clean it every time they use it.

 

[Joel Boyles]

I've been an admirer of Ross Seyfreid for years, and my pet load for my favorite SA revolver was "researched" from him. (If you steal from one person, it's plagarism, if you steal from 100, it's research!) That said, there are times when he says things that fall under the "show me proof" heading. Not saying that he's wrong, but I'd have to see more proof, and he won't test his theory on MY guns!

JMHO, FWIW, YMMV, other caveats as required.

Joel

 

[arcticap]

There probably are 2 camps when it comes to cleaning muzzle loaders, those who prefer water based cleaners and those who prefer chemical solvents. Not everyone shoots the same powders or has the same style of gun with the same barrel characteristics, so everyone has different needs, circumstances and cleaning regimen.
IMO every cleaning method has its own advantages & disadvantages. If one method doesn't remove all of the Bore Butter residue, and another method doesn't remove all of the powder residue, then by using different methods all of the bases get covered.
A method that is practical for one person might be too impractical for another. So in the end, everyone chooses to use the methods that they feel the most comfortable with, which is basically just a matter of style. :v

 

[paulvallandigham]

Ask yourself, have you ever read an article by Ross where he talks about " seasoning a barrel " on one of his modern guns? If not, why not? Modern barrels are made of the same steels that are used to make ML rifle barrels.

YOu season iron, like your skillet. You don't season steel. If you let crud build up in a rifle, all you do is fill up the grooves and destroy accuracy. Then you have to go at the barrel with a bore brush and a vengence to clean it out again. Bore butter is not a solvent, so it does not melt, or eat away old bore butter. It just forms a new layer on top of the old cake.

I liked a lot of things Ross wrote about, but I would not have called him knowledgeable about black powder guns, much less a guru on the subject. He spent most of his years as a professional hunter in africa, working for game departments when he was not guiding safaris. He moved to the states when things got to hot in his old country. He was good field shooter with modern rifles, and certainly had the courage to face dangerous game at close ranges. Respect him for that. As for his knowledge about MLs, listen to the members on this forum. There are a lot of people who have never shot anything but MLs, and most of us shoot way more MLs than modern guns, out of preference.

Since you are new to the forum, how about trying to make it to a big shoot, where you will see and meet a lot of very fine shooters. The Sgt. York memorial Chunk Gun match is comeing up on the weekend of March 24-25, and will host several hundred shooters from all over the united states. That is where you can " acid test " the advice you have read, or been given. The Spring Nationals are coming up the second week of June, at Friendship, Indiana Several thousands of shooters will be there, including some of the best and brightest. If you check an issue of Muzzle Blasts, there are state shoots listed all over the country, either in ads, or in commentary. Each will see a lot of fine shooters who are more than happy to show you what they do, and tell you why they do it. We have a Rendezvous at Sullivan, Il. the last weekend of April, and it now draws about 100 shooters. Not bad for a small club in the middle of almost nowhere. Lots of traders, and about 50 camps. Mostly tents and tipis. There are similar events schedules all over the country. Find an event close to you, and arrange to attend. Take your gun with you. May be you will shoot, and maybe you won't.

 

[Many Klatch]

I never heard of this writer before so I don't know where he comes from. I shoot muzzleloaders two or three times a month and have done so for the last 20 or more years. I am not an expert, I just have a lot of experience. I clean with water every time, I use a fairly loose patch ball combination in both my rifles and smoothbores. I always oil the barrel after cleaning ( I use 50% kerosene and 50% 2 stroke motor oil). I rendezvous a lot and have a lot of experience in keeping a front stuffer clean and functioning in a camping environment. I have never been excited about using the greasy chemical cleaners in my guns.

That is just my personal opinion, every muzzleloader will have their own opinion and they are all entitled to them.

Many Klatch

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Paul, well said and we aint in africa...I have been reading his stuff for decades, and most of it is gospel, especially about english doubles and drillings. I have an interesting protocol in regards to two types of "clean" ML. At the range I use a patch worm soaked with Butch's Bore Shine (2 patches). Run this up & down like a plunger with my Trade Rifle at full cock adding more Bore Shine so as to make a froth spew forth through the nipple. Do this for 3 or 4 sets of patches. The froth cleans out the hooked breech, nipple and some slides down the hammer too. Take the cleanest looking soaked patch and wipe-down the hammer, nipple, and breech area. If I don't get around to rinsing it with hot water for several days, it doesn't matter...the base has been neautralized. This works great at Boy Scout camp where running water is scarce. At home all I have to do is rinse-out the barrel with hot water, dry patch the bore and oil it heavy. Then I store it for a few days upside-down with paper towel underneath to catch the excess oil. Next range session all it takes is a dry patch and I cap-off watching for a blade of grass to move...no missfires either. This works with PRB or my T/C 370 gr. Maxi-Balls in .50 cal. Although I'm new to the forum, I've been following your posts and enjoy reading them! :hatsoff: All the best, Dave

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I use hot windsheild wiper fluid (tip I found here) for cleaning after dry patching 3-4 patches and bore brush to loosen crud. In field I use Go-Jo white as wipe down.

 

[MikeChapin]

It sounds like the author is writing from little experience with BP. The big tipoff is mentioning seasoning the barrel. It appears that he was listening to some "expert" and mearly repeating whatever he said.

Over the years I have used all kinds of concoctions to clean the barrel. Some of them worked rather well. As good as soap and water.

I do question his use of Bore Butter. I don't use it myself except to lube nipple or cleanout screw threads. Other people have mentioned enough problems with build-up that I don't see the need to use it in the barrel.

Paul's advice is right on the money. Listen to a lot of people with a lot of experience. You will pick and choose from all that knowledge to come up with a regimine that works best for you in preserving the rifle and shooting it well.

 

[roundball]

Personal opinion:

1) In spite of being a 15+ year user of Natural Lube 1000 (bore butter) I don't believe in or trust the seasoning thing...I believe in keeping a bore as close to a factory new bare raw metal state as I can and allow no buildup of anything to occur;

2) I've always used steaming hot tap water & dishwashing detergent, followed by a plain hot water rinse to clean all mine...and so far that approach has worked for me for a long time with many rifles. I also include a quick couple dozen strokes with a bore brush as part of the cleaning regimen as added insurance against any buildup.

3) I'll emphasize that a bore has to be 100% bone dry before lubing with bore butter as it does not displace moisture.

4) Once bone dry, be sure to use plenty of bore butter to ensure every square inch of bore walls are plastered with it to insulate the metal from the air...bore butter doesn't 'run' or 'migrate' around like a liquid lube usually does so where you put it is usually where it stays.

5) It also has an excellent benefit of minimizing fouling, keeping what little fouling there is very soft, and allowing long strings of shots to take place without having to wipe the bore between every shot.

6) NL1000 has another excellent benefit which is that you never have to worry about it as a lube that might kill a powder charge.

 

[Jac Spring]

Thanks to all replies.

Looks like the consensus is to clean with water or something after each use - not just powder solvent and bore butter, and to oil when done.

I do want to say that I've read many an article by Ross Seyfried and he most definately does not just quote "authority". He uses the method described or did at the time of writing that article. If he is off as you all suggest, then it would be the first time that I've found him to be so, which is why I posted this.

That being said, I am going to use warm water after each shooting session - after doing a terciary cleaning at the range.

I have my own lube that I will be using too which is beaswax, lard, olive oil mix and some mint oil - is white and sets up like SPG. What do ya'll think of that?

Is the problem with the TC bore butter the use of parfin? I read here that they use parafin and mineral oil in it...

 

[roundball]

Is the problem with the TC bore butter the use of parfin? I read here that they use parafin and mineral oil in it...

Bore butter by it's nature is a waxy material and I suspect that's what begins to build up if not 100% cleaned out of the bore every time...as I said, IMO NL1000 is an excellent lube...just have to know that it needs to be completely cleaned out.

A poster here a couple years ago made a comment about the benefit of using steaming hot water if using bore buter as a lube as it makes the point pretty well.

He said if you take a breakfast plate with leftover egg residue on it to the sink and hold it under cold or even tepid water, nothing happens...but if you hold it under steaming hot water, in just a second or so the egg residue melts and slides right off the plate (no buildup left behind).

IMO, my use of steaming hot soapy water is why I never have problems using bore butter...and would speculate that if people have problems with bore butter it is not because of a product problem, it's a 'process' or user problem.

I just wish the manufacturers would put additional user info like this on the product label to make sure it's use won't cause a problem...my .02 cents

 

[54mountain]

Thats pretty much the same mix I use and I can get 50 to 75 shots before loadin' gets tough and I have to swab with a wet patch. for that I use a 50/50 mix of alcohol and murphys oil soap, and at the end of the day I clean with warm water with just a drop or two of dish soap followed by a few dry patches and then coat everything inside and out with my lube mix.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Just my two cents...

OK - then, I come here and read that you should use the water after every time you shoot,...

Cleaning your rifle after each shooting session is a good idea. Since black powder residue is water soluble, water is a great cleaner.

...that the bore steel does not season

That's corrrect. You don't "season" a steel rifle barrel - it's not a cast iron skillet.

... and that tight balls are good...

One should use whatever patch and ball combination works best for a particular gun.

...and many say to oil the bore after cleaning.

I apply oil to a great many metal objects so they don't rust. My firearms are no exception.

Everyone's milage may vary.

 

[No Deer]

As you can see, if you ask 100 different people what is the best way to clean a gun, you will get 100 different answers. The best thing is to try some, find one you are most comfortable with, and then use that.

 

[barebackjack]

I used to use bore butter. Its ok when its warm. But sucks in the cold. Ive switched to stumpys moose snot. Works in a wider temp range, and cleans MUCH easier with just water and a splash of simple green.

(Kinda miss the minty smell though :grin: )

Bore butter works great for taking the shine off tru-oil though.

 

[cowpoke1955]

Paul,
You are right on the money :thumbsup: . These people are just repeating folklore. You cannot season a steel barrel. You might as well weld a horse shoe to your barrel for good luck. Your advise about going to different shoots is very sound. Muzzle loaders are always willing to share their secrets. You just pick and chose what works for you.

 

[Todd Rickard]

Clean your ML with hot water and patches, sparingly use solvent, if you feel good about it. When the bore is clean, dry it and run a couple of lightly oiled patches down the bore.
There should never be enough oil to 'run out the bore', or a need to store muzzle down. I would not pack any grease or waxy substance in the barrel unless the arm was to be stored for long periods (years) without attendance.
Wipe down the outside of the piece with an oily cloth. You are done. Even a rookie can accomplish this in 10-15 minutes. Do it every time you shoot. Put your gun away clean, like it was to go on the showroom floor.
I've never had rust or build up in over 20 years of shooting MLs.

 

[Todd Rickard]

I also remove the lock and scrub the inside workings with HOT water, or solvent then HOT water. A toothbrush is what I use for this. The heat will dry it, or you can blow it dry. A spritz of oil when its dry, wipe it down, then reassemble.

 

[graybeard]

Read a two-part article by Seyfried on flintlocks right after I bought one. Found it very helpful. I don't remember anything he wrote about cleaning. I found an article by Doc Carlson in the book of buckskinning II very helpful in cleaning. It's about the only way I clean my rifle now, and I almost never shoot anything but the flintlock any more. However, all the advice about cleaning to suit YOU is the best you'll get. graybeard