Cleaning 150/200 years ago

[cynthialee]

they had soap, warm water is easy enough to get with a pot and fire on hand, in fact the soap they had is pretty much the same type of soap my sweetie makes and it is great soap, better than many of the offerings in the store

the lube they used was superior to the manure you and I likely use, they had sperm whale oil and bear fat oil easily available via trade {Yes I know some of you have good bear oil, you dudes shut up.}

Our forefathers might have seemed primitive to the modern eye, but it isn't true.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Yes I know some of you have good bear oil, you dudes shut up.}

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :thumbsup:

I almost fell out of my chair.

 

[Col. Batguano]

You have to remember that things don't rust nearly as quickly in below freezing temperatures as they do when it's above freezing. When I've shot game in cold temps I've left the rifle outside while I deal with the meat, as, I'd much rather deal with meat that's still somewhat warm. Skinning and boning out a frozen critter is almost impossible. The rifle can wait. And that's not new.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Greg Geiger said they were forbidden to take their lock apart. That is not the same as removing their lock.

As Greg said, yes they were forbidden from taking it apart. But that's not all, they were also forbidden from removing it from the musket as you and I would normally do when cleaning a lock. They were taking no chances the soldiers would be fiddling with the locks

So that's even worse than Greg said. They still had to clean and shine everything up though.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

[bpd303]

I actually clean my loaded rifle barrel with damp patches followed by dry ones then very lightly greased. I then use the greased patch to wipe down the lock pan and dirty areas around the touch hole

My grandfather who taught me a lot about muzzleloaders would run an oiled patch down the bore after loading his 36cal flintlock (don't know what kind of oil). When I asked him why he oiled the bore when it hadn't been shot his answer was simple "keeps it from rusting". He was born in the late 1800s.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Do you think we need to do that if we are already using a grease or oil-based lube? I can see how that would be beneficial if using a water-based lube however. But, if a water-based lube the water in the patch would still be in contact with the bore where the ball is, and, rust could still occur there.

 

[bpd303]

I don't know what he was using for a patch lube but the oil he swabbed the bore with smelled bad and was kind of white/milky looking.

 

[rich pierce]

On their great expedition, Lewis and Clark found it necessary to have some of the rifles "freshened" in the field. I doubt they were shot out based on reading their chronicles, even 10 shots a day by hunters would be less than 5000 rounds over the journey. This raises the possibility that rusting and pitting contributed to the need for freshening the rifling. Every old original black powder rifle I have handled has a pitted bore. That is not "wear".

 

[54ball]

While I can site no reference I thought I'd add to this discussion by mentioning that back then barrels were not made of steel as we know it today. We are truly blessed to have our muzzle loaders being made from modern steel, which isn't rust proof by any means but it is much tougher and stronger than the iron barrels of the 18th century. Once a barrel was "shot out" it was often sent to a gunsmith to be freshened up, which meant that it would be bored to a slightly larger caliber and another ball mould would accompany it. Calibers we not standardized as they are today and everything was had made and hand fitted on an individual basis. The softer "steel" used back then lent itself to being bored out using hand tools fairly easily. Imagine trying to do that with a modern steel barrel! Thorough cleaning perhaps wasn't seen as such a necessity as it is today. Anyway, food for thought.

As Bull3450 pointed out, the barrels back in the 1700's and 1800's were not made of the steel that they are today. They were wrought iron and hammer welded which resulted in a mild steel. As such they were much more subject to rust than modern steel barrels and proper maintenance was even more important then.

In the spirit of education...

Wrought iron is indeed "softer" than modern steels but it is actually tougher IE, less brittle and to a greater extent more corrosion resistant than modern steels. In actuality wrought iron is a better material for black powder arms due to these properties than modern steel. Since true wrought iron has not been produced in any volume in modern times a good wrought iron barrel produced in the traditional manner can cost thousands of dollars.

Few are going to pay that, so they settle for "replica" steels that share some properties with wrought iron of which corrosion resistance is not one.

A good example are the wrought iron railings on 200 plus year old homes. Most are still structurally sound. The replica steel railings on my house 1964 need replacement as they have rusted away in some areas.

Wrought iron and steel are similar but in reality they are two very different materials.

In the 60s Wallace Gusler discovered several things when trying to replicate the manufacture of a 18th Century rifle from start to finish.

In the early attempts they used steel skelps. It was found these were very difficult to hammer weld into the a barrel. The main reason was the welding temperature and melting temperature were so close that they lost many half completed barrels in the forge.

By the time of the movie Gunsmith of Williamsburg they were using true wrought iron skelps and that was a much better and more forgiving material for forging a barrel, tougher but easier to work than steel albeit softer which is an advantage.

As a gun barrel wrought iron still retains it's corrosion resistance. Is it rust proof...no but neither is modern stainless.

The Bessemer process pretty much bypassed the wrought phase in the production of steel. That and Nitro powders, where a stronger alloy is required pretty much ended iron as a barrel material even though it is superior in many ways to steel in a blackpowder arm.

 

[coloradoclyde]

My grandfather who taught me a lot about muzzleloaders would run an oiled patch down the bore after loading

I do that if I am going to leave te gun loaded for any lenth of time. :thumbsup:

 

[coloradoclyde]

On their great expedition, Lewis and Clark found it necessary to have some of the rifles "freshened" in the field. I doubt they were shot out based on reading their chronicles, even 10 shots a day by hunters would be less than 5000 rounds over the journey. This raises the possibility that rusting and pitting contributed to the need for freshening the rifling. Every old original black powder rifle I have handled has a pitted bore. That is not "wear".

Makes you wonder how they kept that Air rifle in working condition. :hmm:

 

[54ball]

In composition, wrought iron differs from cast iron and steel in two important features, viz.: (1) In having had removed, as an essential of its manufacture, the greater part of the five elements usually contained in iron. In this respect it is near the composition of mild steel. (2) In containing, as a result of the process of manufacture, a quantity of slag (usually called cinder) which surrounds each iron crystal in a thin sheath, and preserves the identity of the crystal as a fiber when a bar of wrought iron is elongated by rolling or hammering. In this respect it differs from steel, which is crystalline and without much slag.

The chief properties of wrought iron are as follows, viz.:

(a) It is very malleable and ductile, and can be readily forged, particularly when heated.

(b) It cannot be cast, as it is fusible only at a very high temperature (about 2800° F.), and merely becomes pasty at the usual furnace temperatures, though because of this quality it is readily united by welding.

(c) It cannot be hardened, due to lack of carbon.

(d) If pulled apart, the fracture shows a fibrous break. 6

Wrought iron gets its name from the fact that it may be wrought into various shapes readily under the hammer; also it is called malleable iron in England, because of its great malleability, but it must not be confused with malleable castings, also called malleable cast iron or merely malleable iron in America.

While wrought iron and mild steel resemble each other, there are certain distinct advantages of wrought iron which cause it to be retained for some uses. Among its advantages are (1) it welds better than does steel, (2) lasts longer when exposed to weather or to water, (3) is better to resist shock and vibration (fatigue), in use, and (4) its fibrous structure arrests fracture, as its breaking is in the nature of a gradual tearing, which often gives warning of a dangerous stress, while steel breaks suddenly.

Among the disadvantages of wrought iron are, (1) its elastic and tensile strength are lower than those of steel, (2) and its production is more costly.

Read more: http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/mec...-Wrought-Iron.html#.VE7RTldZ7ng#ixzz3HOFFUqCk

Period documentation mentions "shot out" barrels not rusted out. Since true wrought iron is somewhat softer the barrels may have truly worn out before rusting out. :hmm:

 

[BrownBear]

Makes you wonder how they kept that Air rifle in working condition. :hmm:

Nah. Once you get away from big cities the air isn't nearly so corrosive. :wink:

 

[54ball]

From Duane's 1812 handbook for riflemen.

The greatest care should be taken in preserving the interior of the barrel clean, and the lock-careful shooters wipe out with flannel or a clean cloth rag, at every 8 to 10 shots, others 20. No iron instruments should be used in cleaning; the spiral brush of hog bristles should be used to scour with hot water; a woolen brush composed of layers of wool alternately placed across the openings of a piece of hickory, split four times to a length of about 6 inches; the ends of the wool make an excellent brush. After washing clean and drying, the inside should be lightly touched with a good oil.

 

[faste350]

Following strict rules of safety, I actually clean my loaded rifle barrel with damp patches followed by dry ones then very lightly greased. [/quote]

thats what i have done for years. shot my .32 thursday evening one time, reloaded and didn't shot it again. got home and ran a couple oil patches down to the load and followed with a couple dry ones and its ready to go for tommorrow night.

 

[Wes/Tex]

From Duane's 1812 handbook for riflemen.

The greatest care should be taken in preserving the interior of the barrel clean, and the lock-careful shooters wipe out with flannel or a clean cloth rag, at every 8 to 10 shots, others 20. No iron instruments should be used in cleaning; the spiral brush of hog bristles should be used to scour with hot water; a woolen brush composed of layers of wool alternately placed across the openings of a piece of hickory, split four times to a length of about 6 inches; the ends of the wool make an excellent brush. After washing clean and drying, the inside should be lightly touched with a good oil.

There you go...water, dry & oil! Some folks just try too hared...this sport should be simple and fun! :wink: :thumbsup:

 

[Many Klatch]

A lot of the very old cabins that have survived have a bullet hole or two in the upper left corner of the house next to the fireplace. Apparently the inhabitants were trying to start a fire using a loaded flintlock. I assume that there was a quill in the touchhole, but they apparently don't work every time.

Just goes to show that the guns were always loaded.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

In the spirit of education...

Wrought iron is indeed "softer" than modern steels but it is actually tougher IE, less brittle and to a greater extent more corrosion resistant than modern steels. In actuality wrought iron is a better material for black powder arms due to these properties than modern steel. Since true wrought iron has not been produced in any volume in modern times a good wrought iron barrel produced in the traditional manner can cost thousands of dollars.

Few are going to pay that, so they settle for "replica" steels that share some properties with wrought iron of which corrosion resistance is not one.

A good example are the wrought iron railings on 200 plus year old homes. Most are still structurally sound. The replica steel railings on my house 1964 need replacement as they have rusted away in some areas.

Wrought iron and steel are similar but in reality they are two very different materials.

In the 60s Wallace Gusler discovered several things when trying to replicate the manufacture of a 18th Century rifle from start to finish.

In the early attempts they used steel skelps. It was found these were very difficult to hammer weld into the a barrel. The main reason was the welding temperature and melting temperature were so close that they lost many half completed barrels in the forge.

By the time of the movie Gunsmith of Williamsburg they were using true wrought iron skelps and that was a much better and more forgiving material for forging a barrel, tougher but easier to work than steel albeit softer which is an advantage.

As a gun barrel wrought iron still retains it's corrosion resistance. Is it rust proof...no but neither is modern stainless.

The Bessemer process pretty much bypassed the wrought phase in the production of steel. That and Nitro powders, where a stronger alloy is required pretty much ended iron as a barrel material even though it is superior in many ways to steel in a blackpowder arm.

Good post, accurately and well stated. :thumbsup:

 

[Artificer]

Greg Geiger said they were forbidden to take their lock apart. That is not the same as removing their lock.

As Greg said, yes they were forbidden from taking it apart. But that's not all, they were also forbidden from removing it from the musket as you and I would normally do when cleaning a lock. They were taking no chances the soldiers would be fiddling with the locks

So that's even worse than Greg said. They still had to clean and shine everything up though.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

This is just the handiest original reference I have that demonstrates 18th Century British Soldiers were indeed required to take their locks off their muskets, to clean and oil the locks on the inside as well as the outside and then reinstall the locks. There are other sources that are not as easy or not possible to link to.

Privates were all issued "Y" shaped musket tools with two turnscrew/screwdriver blades to tighten the Top Jaw Screw and loosen/tighten the two side lockplate screws.

Now the language in the following is a bit confusing. Privates were not allowed to disassemble their locks, though Sergeants or Corporals sometimes were and issued the tools to do it mainly for inspection or to get something out of a lock that could not be removed without disassembling the lock. If the lock had to be fixed, then it went to the Artificers who were attached to the Artillery.

From "Cuthbertson's System for the Complete Interior Management and Oeconomy of a Battalion of Infantry," by Bennett Cuthbertson. This was first published in 1768 after it was found necessary from the French and Indian War and was republished and used by the British Army through the AWI and later.

Page 93 VII (I will use the modern "s's" instead of the "f's" found in the original text.

Every Soldier (and in a very particular manner every Recruit) should be instructed, by the Sergeant or Corporal of the Squad of inspection he belongs to, in the proper methods of cleaning a firelock, how to take the lock asunder, and how to join the several parts again; making him perfectly acquainted with the name and use of each, that nothing ever be out of order due to his unskillfulness or ignorance.

VIII
It should be insisted upon, that a Soldier at all times keeps his arms in such a state of perfection, as never be ashamed to shew them, by having the inside of the lock well oiled......
http://books.google.com/books?id=1...=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

Gus

 

[Artificer]

I cut my post above a little short as I get concerned about losing a post when hand typing/copying something from a link that I can't cut and paste from.

In practice, British Privates and NCO ranks were taught to take the locks off their muskets. Wipe clean the inside of their locks with an oily rag and then reinstall the locks.

Oh, the Y shaped musket tools to dismount and clean the locks and reinstall them, have been documented to at least the French and Indian War time period and probably came out earlier than that.

Gus