Civil War??

Discussion in 'Civil War' started by Sun City, Sep 5, 2018.

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  1. May 11, 2019 #161

    Artificer

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    As one of a small percentage of Caucasians whose ancestor was forced to come to the colonies as a Forced "Indentured Servant for Life," read that as a slave who could have been beaten or murdered and whose owner would easily have gotten away with it, our family was always most strongly against the evil of slavery and never owned a slave in later generations.

    I don't try to forget the recapture of slaves and forced return to evil institution of slavery, nor do I have anything but the utmost contempt for those Confederate Soldiers who gunned down/murdered U.S. Colored Troops, rather than treat them as Prisoners of War.

    Actually, I feel much the same as Crockett in that since Slavery continued in the U.jS. after other nations bloodlessly ended it, because the entire U.S. economy was saved by it after the War of 1812 when Great Britain pursued an economic war against the U.S. and it continued to profit all the States so much, including giving rise to much of the Industrial Industry of the North, there is plenty of shame to go around for the entire country about slavery.

    I also will never forget how AFTER the war was over, what was done by the U.S. Government to Confederate Major General Stand Watie's and other Native American Confederate Veterans and their families, in the maybe unofficial (wink, wink) but accepted policy of attempted genocide, if they didn't kowtow to much harsher treatment even than many other Confederates were forced to accept.

    Bottom line is that politicians from all parts of the country are to blame for not coming up with a bloodless way to end slavery and thus are responsible for the enormous loss of life and other atrocities during and after the War. That is perhaps the most important lesson we must always remember from the UnCivil War. Push Americans too far without compromise and until they no longer have redress in their Federal Government, add to that Armed Invasion of their States and homes, and it will wind up in oceans of blood.

    Gus
     
  2. May 11, 2019 #162

    tenngun

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    War creates atrocities. Gray or blue both sides committed plenty. As allies and axis, French and English ect ect.
    All of us had angles and demons in our ancestral line. It’s likely that many more then one of your ancestors owned slaves, cheered the death of witches, was a thief, a coward, a womanizer, a saintly person, a truly good soul, and just average.
    People lived in their world, it’s grossly unfair for us to judge them.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
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  3. May 11, 2019 #163

    JB67

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    The slaveholding states insisted on expanding and perpetuating slavery. They had done so since before the Constitution was ratified. The Missouri Compromise wasn't good enough. They decided to secede rather than give it up, and then fired upon a federal military installation.

    Some were more to blame than others.
     
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  4. May 11, 2019 #164

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    And as long as the North got both the huge tax revenues from the South that saved them for a couple of decades after the War of 1812 and allowed them to amass great wealth in their factories and in all parts of their economy, these things were just fine with most of those in the North. That plus New Yorkers were still building or converting ships to carry new slaves from Africa for most of the War.

    Shall we talk about what Slave State voted against ratifying the 13th Amendment twice and was the last State forced to give up Slavery? Hint, it wasn't south of the Mason Dixon.....

    Gus
     
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  5. May 11, 2019 #165

    tenngun

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    Without expansion they could foresee a day when enough new states could exist that could force a anti slavery amendment, and slave owners could be dispossessed of real property at the whim of other states.
    Slavery represented enormous personal wealth. A unskilled field hand was worth a years middle class wages. A skilled slave could fetch two to four times that much. A landed gentleman with fifty slaves held the wealth that could give a middle class man a life of leisure.
    Should a government exist that can point its finger at ones wealth and arbitrarily take it away it could point at any ones wealth and do the same. This is a tyrannical government power our founders feared.
    The south hoped to go in peace. When the north refused they fired on federal property to express willingness to defend states rights with force of arms. They chose to fire on a post where little loss of life or property destruction was expected. The fire was symbolic.
    Our nation was founded by people who thought government existed to serve the people. When the people perceived the government to not be serving the people’s need the people had a right to sever ties with that government.
    From a fair outlook either the south had the right to withdraw from the union, or the whole of the United States did not have the right to withdraw from Britain.
    The west got angry at Japan acting the same way the UK had acted a century before. Spangler, Wilson, FDR, held the same ideas about race that Hitler had, and for that mater most western intellectuals.
    When we look at the past we have to think about how the people of the past thought. Not just a black and white judgmental view, but through the grey landscape that those who lived it thought.
    The texicans at the Alamo were defending the Mexican constitution. Mao, Ho and Lenin were trying to create a just society in their countries. Salem was trying to protect the community from what they believed was a real danger. An evil that could destroy not only life here but through eternity. The south was defending the principles of the Declaration of Independence.
     
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  6. May 12, 2019 #166

    dpw21562

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    The Civil War was not started over slavery but "states rights". Slavery was a secondary issue.
     
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  7. May 12, 2019 #167

    tenngun

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    That’s true but slavery was the root. Abolutionist felt it was so evil the slave owners need be punished, and no constitutional idea could not be overstepped to uproot slavery.
    While at the same time slave owners who had been under unrelenting moral attack for half a century came to the unreasonable idea that racial slavery was the foundation of human civilization. That they were the bastion against darkness and barbarism. The moral position of the abolitionist vs the ‘protectors of civilization itself’ that compromise and accommodation became impossible.
    Nothing else, property rights, economy, bloodshed, states rights, rule of law, was as important as ending or protecting slavery.
     
  8. May 13, 2019 #168

    dpw21562

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    There were slaves in the north, most concentration was in Deleware
     
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  9. May 13, 2019 #169

    azmntman

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    I am totally against slavery. That said, way back in our family it is said they had slaves. The slaves had there own homes and land and when they finished harvesting GGGgrampas fields he and other family members helped harvest theirs. It is said they wouldn't leave when "freed". A lot of folks did not mistreat slaves, some did the daily beating and chains things. It's evil for sure but been around since biblical days. I personally agree that the WNA was about states rights and slavery was a smaller part of it than we have been taught. Thank God its over, we should have healed by now.
     
  10. May 13, 2019 #170

    tenngun

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    Economically it wasn’t smart to mistreat slaves. Slaves represented enormous wealth. And the investment had to pay off for the owner. He had a vested interest in making sure his selves were healthy.
    There were Simon Lagrees. However in general slaves were as well fed at lest as poor workers through out the world. And were well housed. The fact that slaves lived in better then factory workers in the north was an argument the south used against abolition.
    Most slaves standard of living went down when freed. The former owner who now employed his workers and later rented land to share croppers didn’t care if children starved, if they were warm orcould see a doctor.
     
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  11. May 13, 2019 #171

    Rawhide67

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    Well said.
     
  12. May 13, 2019 #172

    Artificer

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    My Paternal Grandmother was confused that her maiden name of James was the family name of King James of the King James Bible. So Grandma did her best to try to trace the family back to King James. Of course that didn't happen, but she did eventually find minor nobility in the line. However, upon further investigation, she found out he had been kicked out of Wales for being a "Villainous Rake." At that she was horrified, deeply ashamed and she ended all further research and locked away what she had, then later destroyed it before her death. Of course considering all the shameful things Nobility got away with during earlier periods of history, that Ancestor must have been a rare case even for a Black Sheep of the family.

    My Confederate Ancestor from Kentucky, moved to Iowa after the War, because he built barns so well. We don't know for sure how it happened, but he came to correct the terrible building of a huge dairy barn, then went back to Kentucky when the barn was built properly. Well, word of how exceptional he was at building barns got around, so he was offered land and really good wages to move to Iowa and build more barns and other buildings. He did well for the rest of his life, but his son, my Paternal Great Grandfather was the town drunk. He had learned from his Father and was an exceptional Rough Carpenter when he was sober, but too often took his wages for booze instead of taking care of his family. When he died, he was buried in the Debtors Graveyard for over 11 years before the family moved him to the family plot. Talk about holding a grudge for bad conduct!

    His son, my Grandfather, promised his Maternal Grandmother that he would not get married until after his three sisters got married and he helped support them until they married. For doing that, his Maternal Grandmother sold him a house and land for $ 10.00 after WWI. Of course he did a truly SCANDALOUS thing as well, his bride was two years older than he was!!! Yes, that was the same Grandmother who found out about the Villainous Rake in her family line.:eek::D

    So to further what Tenngun mentioned, if one doesn't want to consider Black Sheep in one's own family, one probably should not do much genealogical research. ;)

    Gus
     
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  13. May 14, 2019 #173

    franky4me

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    The North was rapidly becoming industrial.. It's manufacturing plants benefitted from tarifs on imported goods...and wanted to sell its products in the South , Slaves would also be consumers once free ... The South was agricultural and sold its cotton abroad and imported all it needed mostly from England and France and needed open borders for that. with or without slavery the conflict was inevitable .
     
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  14. May 15, 2019 #174

    satx78247

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    tenngun,

    Don't you WISH that you were correct, rather than spouting DAMNyankee propaganda??

    In 1860, it is estimated tha tless than 10% of American citizens CARED at all about chattel slavery as an issue worth fighting a single skirmish over, much less a LONG & BLOODY war. = They SHOULD have cared but any fair reading of the documents of the 1850s-1854 say that that slavery was AT MOST "a MINOR irritant" to the mass of US citizens. = Even Lincoln said, more than a dozen times in writing/speeches that he cared NOTHING about freeing any slave NOR was there any lawful means to free even ONE slave.

    yours, satx.
     
  15. May 15, 2019 #175

    satx78247

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    dpw21562,

    Actually the percentage of slave owners (and the number of slaves) was about EQUAL in North & South before TWBTS. - The difference was that Northern-owned slaves were NOT in the Northern States, but were rented out to Caribbean & Southern customers.
    (After Richmond fell, the Northern slavers simply moved their slaves to places where slavery remained legal.)

    yours, satx
     
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  16. May 15, 2019 #176

    satx78247

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    JB67,

    Also FALSE & more Yankee propaganda.
    (You need to do some serious research from period documents & you will see that you've been LIED TO.)

    yours, satx
     
  17. May 15, 2019 #177

    tenngun

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    I didn’t mean to give the wrong impression. I wasn’t saying that the war was fought to free slaves, but that slavery was the root of the problem.
    The north had its used it as a club to beat the south. They spoke about hating slavery and preachers preached against it, while at the same time they were more then happy to profit from slavery.
    All the questions that drove the war were rooted in slavery. Tariffs that hurt the south, the move to stop slavery from spreading in to new states, the failure to enforce the fugitive slave act, the differences in the expanding northern economy and the southern economy that being a slave economy was stifled then actively harmed by the north for northern profit at the expense of the south. All drove the war. Lincoln’s platform to prevent slavery in the new territories met it would only be a matter of time till slave states were so outnumbered by free states the south would loose all its voice.
    So while the war was not fought over slavery or to free slaves, and while most people in the north didn’t give a hoot about slaves, or actively did not want an onrush of poor labor to compete with the poor labor coming from Europe, the root of the differences between the north and the south revolved around slavery. It was the effects that slavery had on social thinking and the economy, vs the economy and social thinking of the north.
    Little contact existed between the colonies in the years before the ARW. When the states were forged in to a union two competing ideas of the social compact were brought in to conflict.
    Slavery produced a region that was bound to loose in competition with a free society. The more the south lost and the more it suffered at the hands of the north the more resentful they became. Till BOOM
    Slavery was the root, or more correctly, pragmatic ideas of slavery in the south vs hypocritical ideas about slavery in the north.
    I don’t think if you read through this whole thread you could ever confuse me with a northern propagandist.
     
  18. May 15, 2019 #178

    satx78247

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    tenngun,

    Like so many other "modern" Americans, you seem to believe the utter NONSENSE that the Northerners preach. - I never said that YOU ARE a DY propagandist, though you seem to have bought into their LIES.

    Until AFTER TWBTS what you said was largely FALSE & even after the war, what was said was KNOWING bravo sierra, which was intended to "whitewash" the North & vilify the South.
    (People like John Brown & the preachers that you mention just were just dishonest South-HATERS.
    (The DYs of the 19th Century were quite like today's SELF-IMPORTANT DIMocRAT extremists & other HYPOCRITES are.)

    yours, satx
     
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  19. May 15, 2019 #179

    Kansas Jake

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    I'm not sure that name calling is a way to resolution now any more than it was in 1860.
     
  20. May 15, 2019 #180

    satx78247

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    Kansas Jake,

    Generally speaking, those who complain about "name calling" are out of anything else to say OR are smart enough to know that they are wrong on the documented facts OR know that they have irretrievably lost the argument AND/OR simply don't want to believe/admit that they've swallowed a truck-load of premeditated LIES, "hook line & sinker".
    (Also generally, complaining about "name calling" is a tactic of the FAR LEFT, when they know that their foolishness/lies have been "outed".)

    yours, satx
     
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