Civil War??

Discussion in 'Civil War' started by Sun City, Sep 5, 2018.

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  1. Jun 18, 2019 #721

    Eutycus

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    Offhand I don't know the details or the dates but there was a Thanksgiving of sorts here in Texas by the Spaniards "way back when" too. And it was probably held before the New England event. Its not taught in schools or was widely known but Texas did have Europeans on its soil long before the English arrived elsewhere. And you can also surely bet Mr. Lincoln had nothing to do with it.
     
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  2. Jun 18, 2019 #722

    ppg1949

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    Wow, Gus! What an interesting read. I was never taught this in school. Thanks much for posting.
     
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  3. Jun 18, 2019 #723

    Nativearizonan

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    There were Europeans, Spaniards, that rode into the Verde Valley in AZ, where I live, in 1582; 3 years before the failed Roanoke Colony and well before Jamestown. They did not settle, however. Coronado didn't come through this area, but he went through a goodly swath of Eastern Az in 1540, and on to New Mexico. When the party in 1582 came through Zuni (Cibola), they found a cross in the plaza that was raised by Coronado, and were met by a Mexican who had been part of Coronado's party and had just decided to stay there.
     
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  4. Jun 18, 2019 #724

    dpw21562

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    And did the southerners "burn witches at the stake" , the war started over "States Rights" . Lincoln made it over slavery to draw sympathy and support from other countries. Slavery was SECONDARY .
     
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  5. Jun 18, 2019 #725

    arcticap

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    We were taught about Jamestown, and also taught that the norsemen and Leif Erikson visited North America long before the British.
    And possibly some other groups of ancient peoples spent a lot of time living here with the indians too.
    If the history of North American exploration is incomplete then all of our history can be considered revisionist.
    I'll bet that every boat load that set foot on North American soil after a long voyage gave thanks.
    I'm not sure what makes any one event more worthy of holding the title of the 1st Thanksgiving.
    It's just like choosing which day of the year is Christmas.
    Some one needed to establish it and the date is still split between eastern and western churches based on which calendar is followed.
     
  6. Jun 18, 2019 #726

    tenngun

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    Slavery was the ground the war grew in. Because it’s argued that it was states rights to keep slaves. Importantly it was property rights and economics. It was who was sovereign, the people of the state or the federal government. From whence do our rights come. Does the government give you rights, or is it the governments responsibility to protect your rights. If it’s the government responsibility to protect your rights and it fails in that duty do the people have a right to sever ties with that government.
    It was called a civil war, but as mentioned at the beginning of this thread it was not a civil war in the traditional definition of the word. It was a war of independence. It was a war to determine who owned Arkansas or Texas or Georgia. The people of those states or Washington DC.
    I would point out that most eastern and southwestern Indian tribes practiced some sort of religious harvest celebration long before the first whites showed up in America. And Christians seem to have had a thanksgiving ceremony since the first century.
    It’s well know that the first thanksgiving was when Ugh discovered beer about Ten thousand years ago. As Ol’Ben said, ‘Beer proves God loves us and wants us to be happy’
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
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  7. Jun 18, 2019 #727

    Artificer

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    I had to look up whether Lief was a Christian, and he was, so that isn't why we don't recognize his settlement as the First Thanksgiving. I think, instead, because it was not a settlement that lasted more than a decade or so.

    The Roanoke Colony probably gave thanks when they landed in 1584, but they were not a lasting colony either.

    Yes, our Christmas date was deliberately set to "replace and wipe out" the Pagan celebration of Saturnalia. A fair number of our religious festivals were set to take over from Pagan rituals.

    Since the First Thanksgiving was done in Virginia and was intended to be held every year since, also because Virginia did become a permanent settlement, then that is how it was proven to have been the First Thanksgiving, even with the "New England Bias" saying the Pilgrims did it first.

    Gus
     
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  8. Jun 18, 2019 #728

    Artificer

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    Oh, many people don't know the Pilgrims were supposed to have landed in the territory that was called Virginia. I often joke they got lost, MISSED THE ENIRE NORTH AMERICAN CONTINENT with poor navigation, but finally found it when they were too far north. The most drastic thing, though, was "they ran out of beer!" and that's why they had to land at Plymouth or return to England.

    Now, running out of beer on long voyages was a terrible thing in those days. Water often went bad before an Atlantic crossing was finished and beer had just enough alcohol that it could be safely drunk long after water went bad. OH, and we really can't blame the Pilgrims for the poor navigation, because they weren't in charge of the ship and were not the navigator/s. But since most people don't know these things, it still is a jocular story.

    OK, back to the UnCivil War.

    Both side earnestly appealed to Heaven to support their cause and more so in the South.

    The Commissioned Black Chaplain of the "Stafford Guards", Co. I., 47th VA Inf. Regt., did not join in the actual fighting until the counterattack against Meade's Breakthrough on the 1st Day of the Battle of Fredericksburg. Since their families were on the North side of the Rappahannock and that area was occupied by the Federals, that was on the mind of every soldier in the Company, plus some in other companies in the Regiment. The Chaplain demanded to take his position in line with the other Officers and they offered him a sword and pistol/revolver. He refused and said his Walking Stick would be his Sword and his Bible would be his shield. The Soldiers kept crying "Chaplain to the Rear!!" because they thought so highly of him, even though he was a bit of a PITA to them about not swearing or blaspheming. The story went the Chaplain actually thumped a few Federals on the head with his Walking Stick and knocked some out, but didn't kill anyone. However, it was said in the heat of battle, the Chaplain let go of a surprising string of oaths and curses, some of which even most of the Enlisted Soldiers had never heard. So naturally after the battle, they kidded him about it a great deal. After that, he let a lot of their cursing slip, but not blaspheming.

    No, this is not published anywhere as a complete story. The Head Historian of the Fredericksburg National Parks Battlefields back in the 1980's, informed us of this local history.

    Gus
     
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  9. Jun 18, 2019 #729

    Eutycus

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    Google Juan DeOnate. It seems I've heard that story somewhere about the Chaplain but it sure wasnt in any History book.
     
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  10. Jun 18, 2019 #730

    arcticap

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  11. Jun 19, 2019 #731

    Ironfoot

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    Yeah, me too.
     
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  12. Jun 19, 2019 #732

    Eutycus

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    Can one of you scholars help me out here. Today is Juneteenth. From the history books (and my poor memory) I always thought it was General Gordon Granger who landed in Houston and informed the slaves the war was over and that they were free. Now I'm told it was General Robert Granger who landed in Galveston. Yankees had 2 Gen. Grangers.
     
  13. Jun 19, 2019 #733

    Eutycus

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    Oh by the way, June 19th was also the anniversary of the sinking of the Alabama in 1864.
     
  14. Jun 19, 2019 #734

    tenngun

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    Your right, I knew it but didn’t think of it at all, I salute the heroes of Kersarge and Alabama, God Bless their memory.
     
  15. Jun 19, 2019 #735

    GomezMunoz1951

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    Going through old stuff I had saved I came across this, I forget where exactly I got it from, I think it was from a Sons Of Confederate Veterans website. I am sorry it is so long:

    Here is a fact most do not know. The first legal slave owner in the Americas was a black man named Anthony Johnson.

    In the period of national crisis immediately preceding the American Civil War, Democratic Mayor Fernando Wood proposed the secession of the city as a sovereign city-state to be called the Free City of Tri-Insula (Tri-Insula meaning "three islands" in Latin), and incorporating Manhattan, Long Island and Staten Island. In an address to the city's Common Council on January 6, 1861, Mayor Wood expressed a Copperhead sympathy with the seceding states and a desire to maintain profitable cotton shipping, confident that the city state would prosper on the import tariffs that then supplied 2/3 of the Federal revenues, and especially dissatisfaction with the state government at Albany. But the idea of leaving the United States proved too radical even in the turmoil of 1861 and was poorly received, especially after the Southern bombardment of Fort Sumter starting on April 12. The war, and especially conscription, was nevertheless often unpopular in the city, sparking the deadly New York Draft Riots.

    The first day of the draft, Saturday the 11th, went well. The second, Monday the 13th, was a disaster. The Irish had not wanted to work alongside blacks on the docks of Manhattan. They had even less interest in fighting what some called “the nigger war,” so that, presumably, emancipated blacks could come north and take their jobs. Their anger first erupted at the draft offices near today’s United Nations headquarters on the East Side of Manhattan. “The men seemed to be excited beyond expression,” reported The New York Times. The mob “danced with fiendish delight” as it set buildings aflame and attacked blacks, killing dozens.

    Coincidentally, the upstate locale of Town Line, New York did vote to secede from the Union, contributing five soldiers to the Confederate troops. Though the secession vote had no legal effect, and the Confederacy never recognized it, Town Line ceremonially "rejoined" the Union in 1946; its residents paid taxes during its time "out of the union," which amounted to 85 years.
     
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  16. Jun 19, 2019 #736

    GomezMunoz1951

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    And Lincoln was not the great anti-slavery hero everyone believes.


    Executive Mansion,

    Washington, August 22, 1862.


    Hon. Horace Greeley:

    Dear Sir.


    I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.


    As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.


    I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.


    I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free.


    Yours,

    A. Lincoln.
     
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  17. Jun 19, 2019 #737

    GomezMunoz1951

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    MYTHThe War of 1861 – 1865 was fought over slavery.

    FACTTerribly untrue. The North fought the war over money. Plain and simple. When the South started Secession, Lincoln was asked, “Why not let the South go in peace?” To which he replied, “I can’t let them go. Who would pay for the government?” Sensing total financial ruin for the North, Lincoln waged war on the South. The South fought the War to repel Northern aggression and invasion.


    MYTHOnly Southerners owned slaves.

    FACTEntirely untrue. Many Northern civilians owned slaves. Prior to, during and even after the War Of Northern Aggression.

    Surprisingly, to many history impaired individuals, most Union Generals and staff had slaves to serve them! William T. Sherman had many slaves that served him until well after the war was over and did not free them until late in 1865.

    U.S. Grant also had several slaves, who were only freed after the 13th amendment in December of 1865. When asked why he didn’t free his slaves earlier, Grant stated “Good help is so hard to come by these days.”

    Contrarily, Confederate General Robert E. Lee freed his slaves (which he never purchased – they were inherited) in 1862!!! Lee freed his slaves several years before the war was over, and considerably earlier than his Northern counterparts. And during the fierce early days of the war when the South was obliterating the Yankee armies!

    MYTHThe Confederate Battle Flag was flown on slave ships.

    FACTNONE of the flags of the Confederacy or Southern Nation ever flew over a slave ship. Nor did the South own or operate any slaves ships. The English, the Dutch and the Portuguese brought slaves to this country, not the Southern Nation.

    BUT, even more monumental, it is also very important to know and understand that Federal, Yankee, Union ships brought slaves to America! These ships were from the New England states, and their hypocrisy is atrocious.

    These Federals were ones that ended up crying the loudest about slavery. But without their ships, many of the slaves would have never arrived here. They made countless fortunes on the delivery of slaves as well as the products made from raw materials such as cotton and tobacco in the South.

    This is the problem with Yankee history History is overwhelmingly portrayed incorrectly by most of the Federal & Yankee books and media.

    MYTHThe Confederate Battle Flag represented the Southern Nation.

    FACTNot true. While the Southern Battle flag was carried into battle, the Southern Nation had 3 different National flags during the course of the war.

    The First National flag was changed due to a resemblance of the US flag.

    The Second National flag was subsequently modified due to the similarity to a flag of truce.

    The Third National flag was the adopted flag of the Confederacy.

    The Confederate Battle Flag was never a National Flag of the Confederacy. It was carried into battle by several armies such as the Army Of Northen Virginia and the Army of Tennessee. Was also used as a Naval Jack by the Confederate Navy.
     
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  18. Jun 19, 2019 #738

    GomezMunoz1951

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    MYTHThe Confederate Battle Flag is known as the “Stars & Bars”.

    FACTA common misconception. The First National Confederate Flag is correctly known as the “Stars & Bars”. The Confederate Battle Flag is known as the “Southern Cross”.

    MYTHThe Confederate Battle Flag represents racism today.

    FACTThe Confederate Battle Flag today finds itself in the center of much controversy and hoopla going on in several states. The cry to take this flag down is unjustified. It is very important to keep in mind that the Confederate Battle Flag was simply just that. A battle flag. It was never even a National flag, so how could it have flown over a slave nation or represented slavery or racism? This myth is continued by lack of education and ignorance. Those that vilify the Confederate Battle Flag are very confused about history and have jumped upon a bandwagon with loose wheels.

    MYTHThe United States Flag represented freedom.



    FACTNo chance. The US flag flew over a slave nation for over 85 years! The North tolerated slavery and acknowledged it as a Division Of Labor. The North made a vast fortune on slavery and it’s commodities. It wasn’t until the South decided to leave the Union that the North objected. The North knew it could not survive without the Southern money. That is the true definition of hypocrisy.

    MYTHAbraham Lincoln was the Great Emancipator.

    FACTWhile Lincoln has went down in history as the Great Emancipator, many would not care to hear his real thoughts on people of color. Martyred President Abraham Lincoln was fervently making plans to send all freed slaves to the jungles of Central America once the war was over. Knowing that African society would never allow the slaves to return back to Africa, Lincoln also did not want the slaves in the US. He thought the jungles of Central America would be the best solution and conducive to the freed slaves best interest. The only thing that kept this from happening, was his assassination.

    MYTHThe South revered slavery.

    FACTA very interesting fact on slavery is that at the time the War of 1861 -1865 officially commenced, the Southern States were actually in the process of freeing all slaves in the South. Russia had freed it’s servants in 1859, and the South took great note of this. Had military intervention not been forced upon the South, a very different America would have been realized then as well as now.


    MYTHThe Confederate Army was comprised of rich slave owners.


    FACTVery far from true. The vast majority of soldiers in the Confederate Army were simple men of meager income. Most of which were hard working farmers and common men. Then, as now, very few rich men ever fight a war.

    MYTHOnly the North had men of color in their ranks.

    FACTQuite simply a major falsehood of history. Many blacks, both free and of their own will, joined the Confederate Army to fight for their beloved Southern home. Additionally, men of other ethnic extraction fought as well. Oriental, Mexican & Spanish men as well as Native American Indians fought with pride for the South.

    Today, many men of color are members in the heritage group SCV – Sons Of Confederate Veterans. These men of color and pride rejoice in their heritage. The continued attacks on the Southern Nation, The Confederacy, and her symbols are a terrible outrage to these fine people. These attacks should be denounced with as much fervor as those who denounce the South.
     
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  19. Jun 19, 2019 #739

    GomezMunoz1951

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    MYTHThe Confederate Flags are an authorized symbol of Aryan, KKK and hate groups.

    FACTQuite the contrary. These despicable organizations such as the KKK and Aryans have taken a hallowed piece of history, and have plagued good Southern folks and the memories of fine Confederate Soldiers that fought under the flag with their perverse agenda. IN NO WAY does the Confederate Flag represent hate or violence. Heritage groups such as the SCV battle daily the damage done to a proud nation by these hate groups. The SCV denounces all hate groups, and pridefully boast HERITAGE – NOT HATE.

    MYTHThe SCV – Sons Of Confederate Veterans are a racist, hate group.

    FACTThis is a blatant attack on one of the finest heritage groups ever. The SCV – Sons Of Confederate Veterans are a historical, patriotic and non-political organization comprised of descendants of Confederate Soldiers and sailors dedicated to insuring that a true history of the 1861 -1865 period is preserved and presented to the public. The SCV continues to educate the public of the memory and reputation of the Confederate soldier as well as the motives for his suffering and sacrifice.

    The SCV – Sons Of Confederate Veterans are in NO WAY affiliated with, nor does it recognize or condone the terrible legacy of hate groups such as the KKK.
     
  20. Jun 19, 2019 #740

    tenngun

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    We have to keep in mind that being against slavery was not the same as being a believer in racial equality.
    The fact that Sub Saharan Africa never built a civilization as socially and technologically advanced as Asia or Europe and that most African societies were tribal equated in the minds of Europeans with an inability to grasp the concepts of modern civilization.
    While some Blacks could be a ‘credit to their race’ most were seen as only capable of menial task.
    However the institution of slavery was seen as the wrong. Morally and economically. “Although he may be poor, no man should be a slave”.
    And this fed in to a great deal of anger in the north among the poor emigrants.
    Irish had long been seen in the same light as blacks, as a demihuman , able to shovel coal but not much else. The new Central Europeans emigrants couldn’t speak English and that alone just proved they were none to bright. They too were reduced to menial work.
    On the other side these same people had a fear. If you could enslave a black man could you enslave a Irishman? Serfdom just ended in Russia and had existed in living memory of Central Europeans. Irish had just lived through an attempt at genocide by starvation.
    In 1860 how should you feel about slavery? What was the worst fear, slavery or serfdom for your self or competition for the lowest paid labor?
     
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