Civil War??

Discussion in 'Civil War' started by Sun City, Sep 5, 2018.

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  1. Jun 16, 2019 #681

    ppg1949

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    Eutycus, my grandparents came to the North at the beginning of the last century. I was born in the North but was raised with Southern sympathies. Where I live it is not unusual to see the Stars and Bars license plates on vehicles. Most Northeners don't understand that it is "Heritage not Hate" to celebrates one's ancestors that fought for the cause they believed in. And it also goes beyond the borders of any forum into everyday life. The recent surge of protest over TWBS statues celebrating men who fought for the Southern cause as an example. I really think it is an organized attempt to cause more division among the people of our nation.
     
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  2. Jun 16, 2019 #682

    Eutycus

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    The CSS Shenandoah helped put whaling ships and the whaling industry out of commission too, from what I've heard. The raider at least slowed it down some.
     
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  3. Jun 16, 2019 #683

    Eutycus

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    Stars and Bars license plates. Ironic that you mention Stars and Bars. Most " protesters" probably don't even know what it means. They are probably of the impression that the Confederate Battle Flag was the official Confederate Flag.
     
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  4. Jun 16, 2019 #684

    tenngun

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    And CSS Alabama that did in something around seventy Union ships about half whalers
     
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  5. Jun 16, 2019 #685

    arcticap

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    There was a Supreme Court case in 1841 involving a Spanish slave ship from Cuba named the La Amistad.
    In 1839, the 53 slaves being taken from Africa to Cuba revolted and killed some of the crew and ordered the remaining crew to take them back to Africa.
    But the crew sailed north to Long Island instead where it was captured by a US naval vessel.
    The slaves were charged with murder but the SCOTUS ruled that the revolt was an act of self-defense and let them off as free men.
    Spain wanted the slaves back as property which the court did not recognize since shipping slaves was an illegal trade.
    The Spanish even lied to the SCOTUS by claiming that the slaves had already been held captive in Cuba.
    The US Missionary Society transported the slaves back to Africa in 1842, and the seized ship was sold to an American who needed a special Act of Congress in order to register the ship.
    The whole ordeal was made into a movie that was released in 1997. --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Amistad
     
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  6. Jun 16, 2019 #686

    ppg1949

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    Eutycus, that is absolutely correct on the CSA flag. They are the haters. I have Southerns that have married into our family and have never seen them or any other Southerner I know show any disrespect to the Stars and Stripes but raise any CSA flag and you are automatically a racist bigot.
     
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  7. Jun 16, 2019 #687

    Eutycus

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    Makes you wonder "Do haters even realize that They are the haters or do they think that They are the normal ones".
     
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  8. Jun 16, 2019 #688

    Artificer

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    In the 1980's, we had a politically correct Commanding General who decided to order all civilian vehicles could not have any kind of Confederate Flag Bumper Sticker, even if it was the State Flag of some Marines. Now, he did not and would not order some other "hate flags" removed from civilian cars.

    OK, so the Rebel in me went into action. I bought a bumper sticker of "The Bonnie Blue Flag" and stuck it to the rear window of the cap on my truck, so it would be clearly seen by anyone behind me. For those who don't know, here is the link showing the flag:
    https://www.usflagwarehouse.com/catalog/product/view/id/2529/s/3-ft-x-5-ft-nyl-glo-bonnie-blue-flag/

    No one said anything about it for a few days until finally the Captain in charge of the Armory and MTU Supply/Weapons storage area was outside and I rendered the proper salute and greeting. As we were chatting, he said, "Gunny, I just have to ask why you have a Rear Admiral's (Lower Half) Flag on your truck?" I grinned and told him it was not a Rear Admiral's Flag and I made sure not to mount in on the bumper, as was done for those flags; so no one would think it was.

    Then I said, "Sir, you are bit of a History Buff. Don't you know what flag that is?' He thought hard for a few moments and replied he did not. Then I informed him it was The Bonnie Blue Flag. He was puzzled and I went on to remind him I often sang the song. Well, he sill didn't get it so I explained further. He admitted he had never seen the flag before.

    Then he grinned and asked, "OK, Gunny, why do you have that flag on your truck?" I informed him I didn't care for the fact that some flags that were supposed to be "hate symbols" were outlawed on base, but not others. So this was my own way of rebelling against an unfair order. The Captain grinned and said, "Gunny, I bet there aren't that many people who will know what it is." I replied, "Yes, Sir, probably only Southron Patriots will recognize it."

    Gus
     
  9. Jun 16, 2019 #689

    dpw21562

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  10. Jun 16, 2019 #690

    Ironfoot

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    Not just you. I am from the North and had relatives fight for the Union. I do not try to bash the South. I think it would be more interesting to discuss things about the civil war than who was right. But then you have Tenngun stirring things up again, calling Lincoln a traitor and such.

    On the Greybeard forum about the Civil War, they even add 'AKA The War of Northern Aggression' which seems to make the cause(s) of the Civil War central to the forum. It kind of baits pro Union people, like me, to respond.

    The phrase "the winners write the history" is too broad a phrase. Maybe in totalitarian regimes the phrase is accurate, but not here. People are still trying to write the history of the Civil War to make it fit their own viewpoints.

    In Minnesota we have a concurrent dialog about the Sioux Uprising, more recently referred to by other names like The Dakota Conflict. For years the viewpoint was the Sioux were the bad guys. Now the narrative has shifted to the Sioux were the victims. (Both arguments have merit.)

    Eutycus, you sound like a reasonable sort, and I think discussing the Civil War with you over a beer would be an enjoyable experience.

    Now for something completely different:

    At Fort Ridgely in Minnesota there is a small museum. There is a sign that says soldiers were issued a daily rum ration, but shortly before the Civil War (I do not remember the date) that was changed to a daily coffee ration. Anybody know anything about that? My guess is it did not go over well.

    Also, I have a family history book that a shirttail relative wrote. It states that one of my great, great uncles in the Union Army boiled down his brown sugar ration and made hard candy which he brought back for his kids on the farm at the end of his service. That is the only place I have read of a luxury item given to soldiers. Anybody know anything about that?
     
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  11. Jun 16, 2019 #691

    ppg1949

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    Eutycus, you brought up an excellent point. I’m inclined to believe they think they are the normal ones and any one that sees decency or has pride in the Southern cause is wrong. While the independence of the CSA was lost, the ideas behind that cause still live today. Even our pastor calls it TWBS and not the CW. He will tell anyone “that the wrong side won”. Not because he believes in slavery but like our founding fathers, he believes in states rights over the federal government.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
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  12. Jun 16, 2019 #692

    Artificer

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    Hi Ironfoot,

    Union Rations included 10 lbs of sugar for every 100 rations. I imagine the "brown sugar" your ancestor made the candy from may have been unrefined sugar that was brown, though I guess it is possible it was brown sugar with molasses, depending on where he was shortly before he was mustered out.

    I was extremely surprised when I learned of one luxury item available to Union Soldiers from Regimental Sutlers, though they had to pay for it, as it was not part of their issued rations. It was "dessicated" coffee. Yes, folks, they had "Instant Coffee" during the UnCivil War. However, it was not JUST coffee. Powdered Milk and Sugar was added to it and it was sold in small bricks. The Soldiers just broke off chunks of the dessicated coffee into a mug of hot water, stirred and they had 'Civilized" instant coffee.

    Probably the most eye opening luxury items I ever read of was when Southron Troops captured a Union Train at the Second Battle of Manassas or Second Bull Run. They leapt for joy to find onions on the train, so set up pots to boil them. Then they found fresh potatoes, so they dumped the pots and put potatoes in to boil. Then they found FRESH Oysters, but it didn't explain whether they cooked them or ate them raw. Then different kinds of meats were found and they kept dumping the pots as each new luxury item was found and putting the newly found items in. Finally, they found FRESH LIVE LOBSTERS. Now some of the Southron boys had little or no idea what they were, but some troops from Louisiana and Alabama described them as "the biggest crawdads/crayfish they ever saw."

    Gus
     
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  13. Jun 16, 2019 #693

    nkbj

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    It's amazin' the knee jerk reactions with people discussing the war a century and a half later. I think it's because of emotions attached to symbols just like ad agencies use to sell prepackaged foods, cars and deodorants. Typically the decades of run up to the split are absolutely ignored. The foreign agents and secret societies involved are ignored. The greed on both sides is ignored. Mostly everybody just wraps a flag around their noblest of holy comfort zones and defends it.

    The one thing that stands out in history is human nature doesn't change, necessitating that the lie is different on every level.
     
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  14. Jun 16, 2019 #694

    Artificer

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    Not to be critical of you personally, but I have to disagree. Also, people back then were writing the history to make themselves look better, etc., etc.

    Case in point: "The War of the Rebellion: Official Records of the Civil War" in 127 Large Volumes or the base line to begin serious study of the UnCivil War.

    "The reports contained in the Official Records are those of the principal leaders who fought the battles and then wrote their assessments days, weeks, and sometimes months later. The Official Records are thus the eyewitness accounts of the veterans themselves. As such they are "often flawed sources – poorly written in some cases, lacking perspective in others, frequently contradictory and occasionally even self-serving." Nevertheless, they were compiled before the publication of other literature on the subject that, in several cases, caused some veterans to alter their memory and perception of events later in life."

    Also:

    "A word of caution must be made here about the value and limitations of the Official Records. As primary source material, the Official Records are, without question, the most complete and impartial documentation on the American Civil War. They provide a foundation for serious research into virtually any aspect of the war. On the other hand, no study of the American Civil War should rely exclusively on the Official Records. The accounts contained in the OR were not edited for accuracy, and due to space considerations, only excerpts of reports were often included. Researchers should thus verify the information found in these reports with other source material to gain as complete a picture of events as possible."

    https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records

    Allan Pinkerton, head of the Union Army Intelligence service for the first two years of the war was often highly lauded. McClellan believed Pinkerton almost without question and that was part of the reason they lost the Pennisular Campaign. Pinkerton was sitting in his tent and often totally made up numbers of Confederate Forces and other things McClellan wanted to read/hear. Based on such made up/inaccurate "intelligence" McClellan moved even slower than usual and wound up losing the campaign.

    As late as the lines around Petersburg near the end of the War, Union Intelligence Officers made a point to read Confederate Newspapers to find out what was "really going on," vs what so many reports from Union Field Commanders said otherwise.

    Gus
     
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  15. Jun 16, 2019 #695

    tenngun

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    I would say that all history is an artifact. Even reading the original papers bits are left out. Until Video and live recordings in real time everything was recorded after the fact. Historians and official accounts dwell on what the compiler thinks was was most important leaves out what seems to be the least flattering or unimportant.
    Random pieces of human interest can be thrown in for dramatic effect.
    All we know about the Gallic wars comes from hand of Caesar, written for political reasons. Almost all accounts of Gettysburg tell the story of Culip. He left his home to go south, joined the confederate army only to march north and die a few yards from his family home on culips hill. And he was just one of thousand of sad deaths.
    What happened at Waterloo? We don’t know. What we have is a story based on often contradictory post battle reports that we try to make sense of and hammer together in to a coherent narrative. An agreed on story, an artifact.
    Peoples views can change quickly. Today’s dearest friend is tomorrow’s worse enemy. When we look at the war and what caused it and the history that lead up to it we try and build A led to B to C till the flame burst forth. The reality was a1,2,3A.and Aa happened followed by BbB1 Bish a little more A a bit of c. And at last a ton of Cs, any coherent story can only be an artifact. Real history is a big river, back currents, undercurrents, whirlpools, still spots,deep pools,swamps rapids and falls, deltas and the sea.
     
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  16. Jun 17, 2019 #696

    gharrod

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    ---------------------------------------------
    Stand Watie
     
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  17. Jun 17, 2019 #697

    gharrod

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    I have Rebel and Yankee ancestors both, and on both sides of my family. Most made it back home, but some didn't. I am equally proud of them all because when the call to arms came, they stood up and stepped up to volunteer.
     
  18. Jun 17, 2019 #698

    Eutycus

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    Now see if you stated that you're proud of your Rebel ancestry on "That Other" forum. You'd have gotten some smart mouth reply like " How can you be proud of someone for fighting to keep other humans in bondage? What a terrible cause to fight and die for". Or something like that. Slavery is constantly overstated.
     
  19. Jun 17, 2019 #699

    Shot deer

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    First Admendment.......
     
  20. Jun 17, 2019 #700

    ppg1949

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    nkbj, have you read “The Impeding Crisis 1848 to 1861”?
     
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