Choked Barrel?

[ADK Bigfoot]

I used to shoot a New Englander with removable chokes. An Extra Full Turkey Choke, with 100 grains (volume) of 777 3f and 1 1/2 oz of #5 lead shot would produce patterns equivalent to any 12 bore shotgun I shot. However, loading it required some steps. Load powder. Unscrew choke tube. Load over powder wads. Load shot cup. Load shot. Load over shot wads. Replace choke tube.

It would produce excellent patterns out to 40 yards. But a reload in the field was difficult, Lesson? don't miss the first time. Or shoot a cylinder bore smoothbore and HUNT birds into your effective range (21 yards) and kill birds. Our ancestors did not expect technology to bring them closer to their birds; they HUNTED closer to their birds. I have taken turkeys out to 21 yards regularly be CALLING them into range (i.e., hunting them) rather than BLASTING them.

ADK Bigfoot

 

[Hawk78]

how little do you know!

exactly

 

[BV]

I used to shoot a New Englander with removable chokes. An Extra Full Turkey Choke, with 100 grains (volume) of 777 3f and 1 1/2 oz of #5 lead shot would produce patterns equivalent to any 12 bore shotgun I shot. However, loading it required some steps. Load powder. Unscrew choke tube. Load over powder wads. Load shot cup. Load shot. Load over shot wads. Replace choke tube.

It would produce excellent patterns out to 40 yards. But a reload in the field was difficult, Lesson? don't miss the first time. Or shoot a cylinder bore smoothbore and HUNT birds into your effective range (21 yards) and kill birds. Our ancestors did not expect technology to bring them closer to their birds; they HUNTED closer to their birds. I have taken turkeys out to 21 yards regularly be CALLING them into range (i.e., hunting them) rather than BLASTING them.

ADK Bigfoot

What am I to do? I can't tell anymore if I don't know how to load a gun or if I don't know how to hunt. I guess the question has evolved from whether or anyone sells a choked smoothbore barrel to whether or not physics is historically accurate.

 

[bud in pa]

At 76 years of age I have at least 50 years experience hunting small game. The first gun that I got to use was my grandfathers 12 ga. Ithica double. I had a heck of a time hitting rabbits with it. Squirrels and pheasants were easier. Rabbits were usually kicked out under your feet, your first shot was usually at 20 to 3o feet. Beyond that the brush was so thick that you could hardly follow them. Many years later I borrowed a book that explained the markings on older shot guns. The flats under each barrel were marked with a 4 on each barrel flat. The book explained that the number 4 indicated a full choke! No wonder I had trouble hitting fast moving rabbits at 5 to 10 yards. I immediately cut 2 inches of off the 30 inch barrels and was more consistent at hitting rabbits. for hunting small game I will take a cylinder bore every time.

 

[Rudyard]

I share Felt Wads view re chokes in muzzle loaders. But proper fowling pieces meant for shot seldom had cylinder bores they mostly had slightly to well open at the breach & relief bored from nearer the muzzle the very reverse of choke . Truer of flint guns if less open at the breach in percussion guns. Service muskets & fusils or trade guns are true cylinder barring rammer wear or erosion . I have made guns from modern choked barrels you can use them but this is expedience rather than original thinking . By relief I mean gradually getting wider in the bore and it would depend on the price of the gun..to a greater or lesser extent .( I bowled a running rabbit this morning using a pinfire but there unmentionable ) If cylinder bored .
Rudyard

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Once again I'm with Brit "S", and Rudyard on this one.. WHAT'S CHOKE ?? As far as range go's Hawker talks of Brown Hares at up to 70yds (possibly a bit of licence there) using No.4 shot from "OLD JOE" an 18b Flint Gun of about 7lb. Some barrel borers in Flint era bored Tight behind, then 1/3 cylinder and relieved forward slowly the last 1/3rd by a bore. Theory being, hold the charge back until it's fully ignighted then hold it together up to full velocity .The relief was to stop the shot becoming too deformed and destroying the pattern. I had a John Manton 16b single flint that would kill Clays and Pheasants out to easily 40yds with an 11/4 oz of 6 shot that was bored like this. Should never have sold it !! SILLY OLD DOG..

 

[BV]

Bear in mind I only asked about choked barrels supplied with kits, so I didn't open this can of worms.

I've shot thousands of patterns at patterning boards over the years and I can tell you without a doubt that unless you try to drive a charge at ridiculously high or low speed or blow a wad through the middle of your pattern, the ONLY variables in pattern efficiency are degree of choke and hardness of shot. Every true cylinder bore barrel is going to deliver a 70% pattern at about 25 yards and a 40% pattern at about 40 yards unless you do something to make it worse, but there is nothing anyone can do to make it better. Short of, I guess, wrapping your shot which makes any pattern at any distance a manure shoot from shot to shot.

I've found over the years that shot hardness, even from the major makers, varies within the same lot, and can vary dramatically from lot to lot. Remington shot, when you can find it, is the hardest and by far the most consistent. It also isn't unusual to find chokes, even cylinder bores, that are of a different constriction than marked.

 

[Snydly]

Not much mystery in "learning" to use a cylinder bore. Either limit shots to 20 yards or so, or cripple game. I'm not much interested in the former, and not at all in the latter.

Not much mystery in "learning" to use a cylinder bore. Either limit shots to 20 yards or so, or cripple game. I'm not much interested in the former, and not at all in the latter.

I use the Mike Bellevue loads for my Fowler. Very easy to shoot with great effectiveness to 35 yards without crippling any birds. It’s a matter of adjusting shot and powder.

 

[MrMackc]

Not much mystery in "learning" to use a cylinder bore. Either limit shots to 20 yards or so, or cripple game. I'm not much interested in the former, and not at all in the latter.

Use bigger shot!, and less of it for the powder charge you normally use, then. , , , practice, practice,practice!

 

[smo]

Look into the Colerain Turkey choked barrels, I’ve heard great reviews on them .....

 

[smoothshooter]

Caywood does jug chokes i think

That is true, but he does 12 and 20 gauge only.

 

[BV]

Look into the Colerain Turkey choked barrels, I’ve heard great reviews on them .....

Just what I was looking for. Thank You.

 

[smo]

They will kill...... so I hear.
There’s been lots of good reports on the Forum over the years about those barrels.
You might try the search feature and see if anything comes up.
I’ve heard reports of turkeys being rolled at 40 yards with them.
Them seem too pattern well , once the proper load is developed..

 

[George]

Every true cylinder bore barrel is going to deliver a 70% pattern at about 25 yards and a 40% pattern at about 40 yards unless you do something to make it worse, but there is nothing anyone can do to make it better.

Here's one pattern which made me think it had been made better. Jackie Brown 20-gauge flintlock fowling piece, 46-jnch cylinder bore barrel, 60 grains Goex 2F, one 1/8" hard card, 1 ounce #5 chilled shot, one thin overshot card, one 1/2" paper felt cushion wad soaked in olive oil to a weight of 35 grains, measured 50 yards. The aiming point is half a sheet of typing paper, 8.5" x 5.5" aka squirrel size.

BTW, I have a 20-gauge flintlock fowling piece with a Colerain turkey choke barrel. They perform as advertised, I have killed one turkey at 40 yards with it.

Spence

 

[Akblackdawg]

Help a newbie..... what are jug choked and how do they work. I have a 10 gage pedesoli choked mod and improved. Chrome barrels. I hunt ducks. Want to use this but can’t reload in field normally. Had to start using 12 gage cups with steel because I couldn’t get 10 ga cups down the barrel. Planning to take gun to gunsmith machine shop and have both barrels opened to cylinder. I hunt over deks and not interested in long range. All I know about jugs is that I like them, not so sure about jugs on my shotgun.

 

[megasupermagnum]

Help a newbie..... what are jug choked and how do they work. I have a 10 gage pedesoli choked mod and improved. Chrome barrels. I hunt ducks. Want to use this but can’t reload in field normally. Had to start using 12 gage cups with steel because I couldn’t get 10 ga cups down the barrel. Planning to take gun to gunsmith machine shop and have both barrels opened to cylinder. I hunt over deks and not interested in long range. All I know about jugs is that I like them, not so sure about jugs on my shotgun.

You wont have much luck, I don't think anyone will work on a chrome lined barrel. That's way too much work. Instead, switch to bismuth shot. It can be loaded identical to lead shot, and is superior to steel in every way.

As for cylinder bores, you can certainly extend your range with different loads. They will never be able to compete with a choked barrel though. Depending on what your small game is, you can get most of your usable range from a cylinder bore. Things like rabbit, squirrel, pheasant, a cylinder bore should be able to throw an adequate pattern to 30-40 yards. Small stuff like dove, you might be limited, I don't hunt them myself. I will say you are handicapped for turkey. You can get a load adequate for 25 yards on turkey, but it takes lots of trial and error. Some claim 30 yard patterns, which I'm sure is possible, but more the exception than the rule. By comparison, good 40 yard patterns are nothing for a full choked barrel, with minimal load development.

I guess a good way to put it, is a muzzleloader with the right load can basically do what a modern shotgun with one level tighter choke can do. A cylinder bore muzzleloader can do what an improved cylinder breechloader can etc.

 

[tenngun]

Help a newbie..... what are jug choked and how do they work. I have a 10 gage pedesoli choked mod and improved. Chrome barrels. I hunt ducks. Want to use this but can’t reload in field normally. Had to start using 12 gage cups with steel because I couldn’t get 10 ga cups down the barrel. Planning to take gun to gunsmith machine shop and have both barrels opened to cylinder. I hunt over deks and not interested in long range. All I know about jugs is that I like them, not so sure about jugs on my shotgun.

Jugged is a area near the muzzle,(the neck or jug in old expression) the area is relived for about two inches and then back to the cylinder size. The shot starts to expand and then is choked back down so it’s constricted again, so that extends the tight pattern.
ive follows this thread with a chuckle. Just like any other aspect of the shooting the old timers faced the same problems we do, and learned how to overcome them, just as we do.
but, we have folks shooting maxies and real, is that different then choking a gun?

 

[BV]

Here's one pattern which made me think it had been made better. Jackie Brown 20-gauge flintlock fowling piece, 46-jnch cylinder bore barrel, 60 grains Goex 2F, one 1/8" hard card, 1 ounce #5 chilled shot, one thin overshot card, one 1/2" paper felt cushion wad soaked in olive oil to a weight of 35 grains, measured 50 yards. The aiming point is half a sheet of typing paper, 8.5" x 5.5" aka squirrel size.
View attachment 57199

View attachment 57197

BTW, I have a 20-gauge flintlock fowling piece with a Colerain turkey choke barrel. They perform as advertised, I have killed one turkey at 40 yards with it.

Spence

Assuming 170 pellets in an ounce of #5's, it looks like you have about 50%-55% in a 30" circle. I counted what looks like 91 hits that would probably be in the circle, but of course, it is impossible to tell for sure without the circle drawn on the target. That is certainly an excellent pattern, percentage wise, for 50 yards. It would be interesting to see 9 more with the same load and see what the average is.

 

[Britsmoothy]

You wont have much luck, I don't think anyone will work on a chrome lined barrel. That's way too much work. Instead, switch to bismuth shot. It can be loaded identical to lead shot, and is superior to steel in every way.

As for cylinder bores, you can certainly extend your range with different loads. They will never be able to compete with a choked barrel though. Depending on what your small game is, you can get most of your usable range from a cylinder bore. Things like rabbit, squirrel, pheasant, a cylinder bore should be able to throw an adequate pattern to 30-40 yards. Small stuff like dove, you might be limited, I don't hunt them myself. I will say you are handicapped for turkey. You can get a load adequate for 25 yards on turkey, but it takes lots of trial and error. Some claim 30 yard patterns, which I'm sure is possible, but more the exception than the rule. By comparison, good 40 yard patterns are nothing for a full choked barrel, with minimal load development.

I guess a good way to put it, is a muzzleloader with the right load can basically do what a modern shotgun with one level tighter choke can do. A cylinder bore muzzleloader can do what an improved cylinder breechloader can etc.

The gun I jugged was a Perdersoli double. The chrome plating is very thin and comes off easy.
Their heavy 10g version could be shortened to become cylinder and combined with 1&1/2oz plus that is alot of iron pellets!

Another possibility is to use cards on the powder and a steel shot cup ( if your worried, I would use a card wrap and worry not) only cut the base of the cup to experiment with it passing the chokes easier during loading. Once loaded and on the cards and full of shot it should hold its shape.

 

[Feltwad]

This thread which is not traditional should never been allowed to continue ,for the moderators to allow it must be not to offend a certain element of members ,it is on the same par has breech loaders and in-lines
Feltwad