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Checking my White Mountain carbine and had some changes

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With hunting season fast approaching, I spent the morning testing the sights and loads for my White Mountain carbine in .50 caliber. I have owned this gun for close to 20 years now and have lost count of the deer and game that it has taken. It has been a joy to carry, very reliable, accurate, and handy. I long ago added a musket cap nipple, removed the rear sight, installed a peep sight and filed the front bead to a post. For years I have shot and killed deer with 85 grains of Swiss 2F, a Lee Precision 250 grain R.E.A.L. bullet with the bottom groove lubed, and a wad between the bullet and the powder. This load has consistently, year after year given me 1 Inch, 3 hot groups at 50 yards and 3 Inch groups at 75 yards and I saw no reason to change anything. Please understand, in the area I hunt (mountain thickets) 75 yards is a loooong shot. Your shot is more likely than not to be under 50 yards. The longest distance I have taken a deer with this gun was about 60 yards while walking from my stand on a logging road, and it dropped where it stood. Only one deer shot has ran any distance (about 20 yards). Most fell over dead as I tend to take neck shots if possible.

However, today something changed and I can't really fathom it at all. The groups were 4 to 5 inches at 50 yards with the old reliable load and even worse at 75 yards. After some experimentation, I found that 80 grains of Swiss 2F, the Lee REAL and no wad brought the groups back to the old standard I had set with this gun. I was relieved and confused. Also, I have always weighed the powder charges and the bullets for this gun. Pouring the powder charge in a quick load tube and sorting the bullets by weight and lubing them. I ran out of those loads trying to solve the accuracy issue and resorted to a fixed measure and lubing bullets from a box of unsorted REALs. I could tell no difference between the weighed loads and the unweighed loads. It has always made me feel confident to weigh everything but I guess I was wasting my time with that labor. I am not saying I will stop doin it, just that I am wasting time. Beats watching TV any day.

I also had a can of Goex 2F with me and tried a few shots with it. There was no real notable difference between the Goex and the Swiss powder. This is a relief as Swiss is ridiculously hard to find, but Goex is regularly available. I do believe I get better performance with the Swiss than the Goex.

The other issue was, after years of using the factory provided ramrod to load before going into the woods and reload after taking a shot, I found the ramrod tips were loose. I also have cleaned the gun with this rod while in camp at night and even pulled a few loads with it. I guess T/C did not pin them in place and I had just never noticed. I do not need to lose a tip in the barrel on a hunt so I pinned those tightly in place after getting to the house.

I have not used this gun while hunting for the past 2 or 3 years, I had other rifles I wanted to shoot. I will admit since finding the load for this gun years ago I have not experimented at all. I simply fired a few rounds before the season every year to check sights, loaded it up and went about my merry way. I may spend a little more time experimenting as it was a pleasant morning with this gun. I have a T/C Maxiball mold and may try some of those in this gun.

The group in the picture is 4 rounds in just under an inch at 50 yards.
 

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I am guessing that you live in the Southwest part of the country and the hot dry weather has dried out the stock and ramrod.The dried out ramrod is the reason the tips are loose. Also a dried out stock would change your barrel harmonics due to changing the contact with the barrel/stock . Or maybe I am totally wrong which has happened in the past!
 
Did you switch to a different container of Swiss? It doesn't matter what brand of powder, it will vary from lot to lot.

I HAD a WMC some years back, and the quick twist gave me fits. I checked that thing multiple times and always saw 1-18".
 
Hi guys, Ohio I live in the frickin humid southeast, but it was stored in a humidity free ( I hope) vault.

The powder was from a case lot purchased about 10 years ago and it was the last can. I loaded from it a couple of years ago. maybe......

I have always said black powder guns were more interesting than other firearms Be careful what you wish for I guess.
 
Hi guys, Ohio I live in the frickin humid southeast, but it was stored in a humidity free ( I hope) vault.

The powder was from a case lot purchased about 10 years ago and it was the last can. I loaded from it a couple of years ago. maybe......

I have always said black powder guns were more interesting than other firearms Be careful what you wish for I guess.
That’s a dandy little carbine and it’s obviously well cared for!
 
However, today something changed and I can't really fathom it at all. The groups were 4 to 5 inches at 50 yards with the old reliable load and even worse at 75 yards. After some experimentation, I found that 80 grains of Swiss 2F, the Lee REAL and no wad brought the groups back to the old standard I had set with this gun. I was relieved and confused. Also, I have always weighed the powder charges and the bullets for this gun. Pouring the powder charge in a quick load tube and sorting the bullets by weight and lubing them. I ran out of those loads trying to solve the accuracy issue and resorted to a fixed measure and lubing bullets from a box of unsorted REALs. I could tell no difference between the weighed loads and the unweighed loads. It has always made me feel confident to weigh everything but I guess I was wasting my time with that labor. I am not saying I will stop doin it, just that I am wasting time. Beats watching TV any day.

So you have some questions to answer for yourself.

How many grains of powder does your measure throw when using the Swiss and the Goex. It may be set for "80" but you need to find out since you are comparing results to measured loads.

Did you cast all of your bullets?

The bullets to which you switched and the group started working..., how hard are they and what do they weigh?

How old were the caps? Were they the same or were some hotter than the others?

What you described was a velocity variation problem. The group opens up because the time to the target varies a lot, and you lose your group. So it's possible that some of the caps were not as hot as the others, and thus there was a problem there. OR for some reason the powder has some dampness, and it itself is causing the variation.

It seems a bit more likely that there was some sort of gas leakage, and you got uneven results. When you upped the load, and stopped using the wads, you possibly improved the obturation of the bullet, making a better seal and thus more consistent velocity. IF you're using store bought REALs OR you cast them at different times, you have simply switched to softer bullets as you ran out of prepped loads, and these did the trick.

Lastly, look very hard at the crown of the barrel at the muzzle. It's also possible that the crown has gotten worn. Although this is unlikely, IF it has a wear problem, the REAL bullets obturate at the nose, not the base, so again you lose gas and get inconsistent velocities as the bullet exits, and increasing the powder simply got the velocity variation high enough to where it didn't show for you out to 75 yards (but would be there at 100-120 yards due to the longer flight time).

LD
 
Did you cast all of your bullets? Yes, from the same lead (dental xray room sheathing) I have been using for several years now.

The bullets to which you switched and the group started working..., how hard are they and what do they weigh?

Same as before, They were all cast at the same time I don't think that pure lead gets harder with time does it? This stuff is soft as butter.

How old were the caps? Were they the same or were some hotter than the others?

They were new musket caps, all from the same tin. Maybe a different brand from the last ones, I don't really remember.

What you described was a velocity variation problem. The group opens up because the time to the target varies a lot, and you lose your group. So it's possible that some of the caps were not as hot as the others, and thus there was a problem there. OR for some reason the powder has some dampness, and it itself is causing the variation.

It seems a bit more likely that there was some sort of gas leakage, and you got uneven results. When you upped the load, and stopped using the wads, you possibly improved the obturation of the bullet, making a better seal and thus more consistent velocity. IF you're using store bought REALs OR you cast them at different times, you have simply switched to softer bullets as you ran out of prepped loads, and these did the trick.

The bullets were all the same and cast at the same time, also I reduced the load (from a weighed 85 grains to a volume measure set at 80 grains) to bring the accuracy back. This or the powder may be the issue.
I had just cast these REALs recently, but once again, I used the same lead as I have been using in the past. The powder was not a fresh can, I opened it a couple of years ago, but it is stored in a cool dry area in a large 40MM grenade can and then in a closet.



How many grains of powder does your measure throw when using the Swiss and the Goex. It may be set for "80" but you need to find out since you are comparing results to measured loads.
I did check the volume measure when set at 80 grains it averaged between 78.7 and 79.3 grains when poured and weighed 10 times. I did this with the Swiss 2F as that was what I was shooting most of the time.

Lastly, look very hard at the crown of the barrel at the muzzle. It's also possible that the crown has gotten worn. Although this is unlikely, IF it has a wear problem, the REAL bullets obturate at the nose, not the base, so again you lose gas and get inconsistent velocities as the bullet exits, and increasing the powder simply got the velocity variation high enough to where it didn't show for you out to 75 yards (but would be there at 100-120 yards due to the longer flight time).

Using both a bore light and a strong flashlight I cannot see any damage or wear to the muzzle.
I will take it back out and try again.

Thank you Dave for taking the time to try and help me figure this out.
 
"That’s a dandy little carbine and it’s obviously well cared for!"

Hi Woodnbow,

It has wear and dings from being hunted but still looks nice freshly cleaned. I am very fond of it.
 
Second on changing the nipple, could be worn and eroded. Also if the musket caps are a different brand than before, that could really change things. Is there any crack developing on the stock oposite the lock, I had a Hawken that shot great until the stock cracked, then it shot all over, til I got it fixed. Lastly, humidity or lack there of can really change the stock to barrel fit, especially if you have not shot it in a few...one tight spot is all it takes. Good luck.
 
Back when I got started in muzzleloading (1971), with flintlock longrifles, NO ONE was talking about, or explaining the reasons behind why a shooter/hunter should keep track of the diameter of the orifice in a touch hole (flintlock), or nipple (percussion).

Fast forward 50 years, and the reasons for doing so are self evident. One of the first things I purchased in getting back into muzzleloading after a 20 year hiatus, was an inexpensive set of pin gages from Accusize Industrial Tools. It is a 50 pc set, ranging in size from 0.011"-0.060" in diameter. Comes in a small snap-lock plastic case. Cost me $32.00. I also sprung for the pin gage holder that has collets on both ends. If I remember correctly, it cost $10.99.

This set of pin gages will let me keep track of the orifices in traditional percussion nipples, flintlock touch hole liners, and (HORROR of HORRORS) the flame channels in the various breech plugs for my Doc White custom stocked inline pistol. Doc has the same problem in his right shoulder that I have in mine, torn rotator cuff tendons. The only way my primary care physician would let me return to muzzleloading hunting is if I found a way to negate the impact of recoil to my shoulder(s). I also have osteoarthritis, which is presenting itself primarily in my shoulders at the moment.

Since I am relatively ambidextrous, I can shoot, and have shot in the past, from both sides.

As a died in the wool flintlock longrifle lover, it was a bitter pill to swallow, after 1.5 years of deliberation, to come to the realization that shooting from the shoulder was a thing of the past.

No combination of magnum recoil pads, P.A.S.T. pads, and ambidextrous shooting vests with sorbothane inserts for both shoulders could mitigate the recoil to a point that I could continue to shoot until age stopped me. Hopefully, sometime in my 80's.

The gift of the inline pistol, and a 1.5 year wait in Doc's queue for him to begin fabricating a set of Javelina, two-handed, dual pistol grip, push-pull stocks that will allow me to shoot anything in North America out of the .50 caliber barrel has me eagerly waiting for the completed pistol to finally show up.

If it works out as well as I think it will, then monies will be saved for an eventual, Rice, 4140CM steel, .62 caliber, Forsyth-rifled, 1:72" twist, 21" long, triple-taper, octagon-round barrel. Since I have already asked Jason, and he has agreed to, he will breech this barrel with one of his proprietary, CNC, 4140CM steel, flint, Manton-style, hooked breech plug & tang sets. Probable cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $750.00-$800.00. Then, have a builder duplicate the inline in the flintlock. And, then sell the inline off to someone else. Because, my heart's really not into an inline, unless it's my ONLY OPTION. Like right now.

Sorry for stealing the thread. Buy a set of inexpensive pin gages. You won't regret it.

Bruce
 
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