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chambers Virginia rifle
- Thread starter john4645
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Stophel
75 Cal.
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Ah, the perennially popular question...what would an American rifle be like from the 1750's? Well, take everything you know about American gunsmithing "schools" and throw it out. Those schools did not really exist then. There are NO known American rifles from the 1750's and precious few suspected ones. A rifle of this time period would generally be VERY German in style or very English in style, depending basically on where you were from.
I'll assume you're talking about the Chambers "Mark Silver Virginia" rifle, which is closely based on the famed "Faeber" gun. PERSONALLY, I strongly suspect that this gun is from the 1760's. IF it had no cheekpiece, I would feel easier about it being called 1750's. This gun is extremely English in style, but with a German-type triggerguard and that horrible stuck-on cheekpiece. Lose the cheekpiece and I (PERSONALLY) would have no problem calling it a 1750's rifle.
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note: the above statements are solely the opinion of the author. they are not to be taken as anything other than personal opinions based upon the observations of the author. your opinion may vary. opinion void in MA, CA, IL, US Virgin Islands, Guam, the District of Columbia, and the cities of New York, NY, and Ottumwa, IA.
I'll assume you're talking about the Chambers "Mark Silver Virginia" rifle, which is closely based on the famed "Faeber" gun. PERSONALLY, I strongly suspect that this gun is from the 1760's. IF it had no cheekpiece, I would feel easier about it being called 1750's. This gun is extremely English in style, but with a German-type triggerguard and that horrible stuck-on cheekpiece. Lose the cheekpiece and I (PERSONALLY) would have no problem calling it a 1750's rifle.
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note: the above statements are solely the opinion of the author. they are not to be taken as anything other than personal opinions based upon the observations of the author. your opinion may vary. opinion void in MA, CA, IL, US Virgin Islands, Guam, the District of Columbia, and the cities of New York, NY, and Ottumwa, IA.
The rifle in Williamsburg heretofore considered the "Bullard" rifle was actually made by John Newcomer of Lancaster,County,Pa. Walt O'Connor turned up an identical rifle signed by Newcomer.Dutchman is correct in that there are NO rifles signed or attributable to the South in the 1750's or earlier.The Faber gun is close chronologically as is the woodsrunner gun possibly attributable to Huffman.Another gun of absolutely unknown origin is Shumway No.118 but one which I have always thought could be a very early Southern gun perhaps from the Eastern shore of Virginia or even Maryland with all that strange Baroque carving reminiscent of extremely early carving on furniture from Jamestown or or a little farther north.And don't forget the RCA gun No.142.
Tom Patton
Tom Patton
There were two John Newcomers. A Lancaster County court record dated November,1767 identifies John Newcomer [probably the elder] of Hempfield Township as a gunsmith.The "Pennsylvania Archives"{Ser.3 Vol.17} reports John Newcomer as a gunsmith in Hempfield Township,Lancaster County,from the tax records of 1771,1772,1779,and[url] 1780.In[/url] the 1780 list he is called "old John gunsmith"John Newcomer the younger and his son {who is still listed in Hempfield Township in 1788}is listed as "John Jr. gunsmith"This younger John Newcomer is probably the man who is listed as a gunsmith in the tax records of Hellam Township,York County in 1793 and again in 1807...The elder John Newcomer apparently died in 1782 because an inventory of his estatewas made in Hempfield township in November of that year.
Joe Kindig Jr."Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle In It's golden Age",PP.115-116
I discussed this rifle with Earl Lanning who owned the Bullard/Newcomer rifle prior to it's purchase by Colonial Williamsburg and he is of the opinion that it was made by the younger John Newcomer some time in the last quarter of the 18th century and as late as the 1780's. The recent signed gun by the younger John Newcomer probably dates from the late 1780's to the early 19th century. It is .38 cal.and is virtually identical to the erstwhile Bullard rifle.Thus the Bullard/Newcomer gun almost certainly made in either Lancaster or York County by John Newcomer the younger in the late 18th or early 19th century can hardly be considered as a pre Revolutionary War Virginia rifle.
Tom Patton
Joe Kindig Jr."Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle In It's golden Age",PP.115-116
I discussed this rifle with Earl Lanning who owned the Bullard/Newcomer rifle prior to it's purchase by Colonial Williamsburg and he is of the opinion that it was made by the younger John Newcomer some time in the last quarter of the 18th century and as late as the 1780's. The recent signed gun by the younger John Newcomer probably dates from the late 1780's to the early 19th century. It is .38 cal.and is virtually identical to the erstwhile Bullard rifle.Thus the Bullard/Newcomer gun almost certainly made in either Lancaster or York County by John Newcomer the younger in the late 18th or early 19th century can hardly be considered as a pre Revolutionary War Virginia rifle.
Tom Patton
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"Thus the Bullard/Newcomer gun almost certainly made in either Lancaster or York County by John Newcomer the younger in the late 18th or early 19th century can hardly be considered as a pre Revolutionary War Virginia rifle."
Don't ya just hate it when someone ruins a perfectly god fantasy with facts? (VBG)
BTW....is the Bullard gun a type "C" or "D"
Don't ya just hate it when someone ruins a perfectly god fantasy with facts? (VBG)
BTW....is the Bullard gun a type "C" or "D"
Not sure if i really got an answer?
The Chambers Ed Marshall/C'springs kit is the earliest rifle available although I have read that the famous walking purchase athlete probably took delivery of this gun in the 1760s.
A pre-rev war hunter/fighter/farmer might be more likely to be carrying something that looked like the Chambers NE or English Fowler smoothies.
A pre-rev war hunter/fighter/farmer might be more likely to be carrying something that looked like the Chambers NE or English Fowler smoothies.
Generalities here regarding decoration. The rifle would probably have some C scroll relief carving and a wood patchbox. The smoothies would have relief carved panel mouldings and the brass furniture would be engraved.
Maybe the builders who participate on this forum will weigh in here. They know a hell of a lot more than I do.
Maybe the builders who participate on this forum will weigh in here. They know a hell of a lot more than I do.
One of the reasons why I am asking the question is that on his web page Chambers has the "Mark Silver Virginia" rifle dated at 1750. and if that is the case I would really like to get it. I also would not care if it is later up to about 1755 to 1765.
Nobody really knows when,where,or by whom the Edward Marshall rifle,Shumway RCA 41, was made. It has been attributed to the Christian Springs gun shop and does bear a close similarity in the carving to RCA Nos.42 and 43 but has very different architecture. Additionally Nos.44 and 45 by Christian Oerter have wire inlay behind the cheek piece which is similar to the other three.The Marshall gun and No.40 are very likely restocked Jaegers and could have been made at any time in the 1760-1780 period.Some have posited that the Marshall gun was made by Andreas Albrecht who was in charge of the gun shop at Christian Springs from 1762-1766. His apprentice, Christian Oerter took over the shop in 1766 and worked there until his death in 1777.There is only one known gun signed by Albrecht and it was likely made in the 1770's when he was working at Lititz northeast of Lancaster.It bears virtually no resemblance to the Marshall gun but the carving is very close to to several early Dickerts especially Nos.48 and 49.I have a Marshall rifle made in 1986 with all the whistles and bells and it would be nice to think the original gun was made in the 1750's or 60's but the truth is that nobody really knows when and where it was made and who restocked the original Jaeger.It isn't really beyond the realm of possibility that the maker of rifles Nos.42 and 43 was Andreas Albrecht utilizing European training and decorative details and that these guns predate the Marshall rifle and that when it was restocked some of the design elements and in particular the carving were used in the restocking.It should also be noted that the barrel on the Marshall rifle has been rotated so that the rather crudely engraved inscription on the top barrel flat was originally done on the bottom of the barrel and probably reflects the German barrel maker.I welcome responsible conflicting opinions.
Tom Patton :hmm:
Tom Patton :hmm:
The rifle to which you refer by Mark Silver and offered in kit form by Jim Chambers is the Johanes Faber rifle,Shumway RCA No.117.Jim dates his kit as 1750-1780 and original rifle possibly as early as the 1740's. Shumway dates it Ca.1740's through the 1760's.As with other guns attributed to Virginia,there are NO signed and dated rifles before the F&I War and the Revolution.There are also no kits other than this one which even come close.Nobody really knows who when and where on this gun.The name,"Johanes Faber" is engraved on the sideplate but makers rarely signed their guns there.As I have opined before this is about as good a gun as you will find for the second half of the 18th century. Is it a Virginia gun? I don't know but it's as close to being one as you will find for the period in which you are interested.
Tom Patton
Tom Patton
OK guys. John wants a recommendation. What commercially available kit should he consider for a 1755-1765 rifle and how should it be decorated? I think Fatdutchman and Okwaho have made the case that the Faeber/Virginia and C'springs/Marshall styles could PLAUSIBLY be from that time period.
My 2 cents here, go with the Chambers C'spring with wood patch box, tang/panel mouldings and relief Cscroll behind the cheek pc (won't be cheap!!!). I like the lock without the pan bridle.
Cheers
My 2 cents here, go with the Chambers C'spring with wood patch box, tang/panel mouldings and relief Cscroll behind the cheek pc (won't be cheap!!!). I like the lock without the pan bridle.
Cheers
