Chain fire

[mr.flintlock]

When loading a cap and ball revolver, I have always smeared a little grease over the balls to prevent a chain fire but this has never made sense to me. How is it that fire can get past the ball and chamber wall in another chamber? The balls are pressed into the chambers and are air tight.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Here's a couple previous discussions...
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/301006
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/296563

 

[rdstrain49]

The first response on the first discussion is absolutely correct. Further, most if not all chain fires are the result of the age old practice of pinching caps that are too large or too large caps falling off. Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[mr.flintlock]

Your explanation actually makes sense, especially if a cap has fallen off next the chamber being fired. When I first began fooling with cap n ball revolvers, I read from a Dixie Gun Works Catalog that grease needed to be smeared over the front of the balls to seal the chamber to prevent chain firing. I always did it but it just never made sense. The only thing I could figure was that some older, poorly maintained revolvers could have chamber walls that were pitted and could let a spark make it past the ball and chamber wall.

 

[Mean Gene]

I remember that post, I commented on it, I had a chain fire that day but couldn't find a reson for it to have happened.
I still do not believe that any fire can get past a pressed in ball with a lubed wad on top of the charge.
It seems to me that it would have had to have gotten in from the back of the cylinder somehow.

 

[Mr. Troll]

When I first got my Uberti G&G .36, I had several chain fires. It was almost always the chamber180 degrees from the barrel that went off. The loading ram got the brunt of the hit. I finally measured the chambers and discovered that they were a uniform .375, and I was loading .375 Hornady swaged balls. They always went in with a VERY thin ring of lead...Switched to a cast .380 and haven't had a single issue since. The way I see it, the ball, if sealed correctly, and the cap, if it's a good fit, make a cartridge combination no different from a metallic centerfire, or rimfire, and there are no problems with chain fires from them.

 

[crockett]

Well the field experience seems to indicate that there are a variety of ways a chain fire can occur. As stated, this has been discussed before.
On another current thread Zonie posted the Colt instructions on loading a cap and ball revolver. Colt instructs to first snap a cap on an unloaded chamber to burn off any oil and clear away any dust. We ran a survey a few years ago and a lot (70% ?) of chain fires happened on the first shooting of the day and the faulty chamber was usually that next to the chamber in line. Those that had experienced this had NOT fired a cap on an unloaded gun. The theory arose that the caps on greasy nipples had been knocked off from the recoil and the hot gases exploded the adjoining chamber.
Another person ( I think it was WV Hillbilly) said a loose fitting ball could actually get knocked forward from recoil and expose the powder. It was also found Crisco would bun up after one or two shots and the remaining chambers had none left in them. We are assuming the lube over the chambers was to prevent a chain fire but it might have been to keep the powder in the chamber dry.

 

[LEM]

Perfectly agree: I mostly never grease my chamber entries, but instead use .454 balls, making sure they "seal" correctly my chamber with a generous ring of lead when pressing them in. Never had a chain fire. Large-enough balls correctly sealed, and no problem.

 

[Zonie]

History shows that Sam Colt believed at one time that the flash from the chamber being fired could ignite the powder in adjacent, loaded chambers.

He (or someone who worked for him) came up with the idea of putting a chamfer on the mouth of the chambers.
As with all of his companies ideas, he Patented the idea.

The Patent claims the chamfer deflects the flash from the firing chamber away from the interface between the loaded chambers balls and the chamber walls thereby preventing the flame from getting to the powder.

Nothing was mentioned about how the flame could get past a pressed in ball in an unchamfered chamber so I guess we'll never know what his thinking on this issue was.

Colt was familiar with flames from the rear of the cylinder causing chain fires.

When he made the first Patterson Revolver, it included a shield around the rear of the cylinder to protect the shooter from the flame and flying cap particles.

It didn't take long for him to figure out that this shield often was the cause of chain-firing and the idea was scraped before the first Patterson was sold.

That's when he came up with the idea of putting the nipples down into a area with a wall between it and the next chambers nipples.
The wall would help shield the adjacent nipples and their caps from the powder flash at the rear of the cylinder.

Again, he Patented this idea.
Being the smart man that he was, he didn't Patent the milled slots where the nipples sit.
Instead, he Patented the whole idea of placing a dam between the nipples to deflect the blast from the rear of the cylinder away from the other nipples.

A few years later, he put a competitor out of business because of a violation of this Patent.

By the time Remington and other competitors started selling their guns, this Patent had expired.

 

[LEM]

Interesting! Many thanks for the story!

 

[jimhallam]

Sadly the MLAIC in their R&Rs for International matches REQUIRE grease in chamber mouths. I reckon that must be to avoid any chance of blame IF there was ever a problem. Remember, ambulance chasers are everywhere.

 

[Rat]

Here is a bit of a riddle. I shot revolvers for many many years, a replica Colt 1860 in particular, and never had a chain fire. (still have it, and a Remington Navy, and have still never had another chain fire) One day, when 777/triple7 first came out, I tried it. On the second cylinder of the day, she chain fired. I've never touched any kind of fake black powder, or "substitute" since, but try to explain that one. !!! That was with tight fitting balls, and wads under the balls, no grease over the balls. Probably with CCI caps, but I've used them before, and since, without issue. I do use the tighter fitting Remington or the German caps these days. Anyhow, I find it to be quite a mystery.

 

[nkbj]

If you tried sealing any device with a sheared (not compressed) piece of lead...

Do you really really think that you would achieve a leak tight seal 100% of the time, time after time? No, of course not. The self propelling burning mix of liquified sulfur and potassium nitrate flows anywhere it can. Learned that lesson in 1968 when making my own powder.

 

[Zonie]

Most people agree that the main reason for a chain fire is due to the flame getting to the powder in the chamber by finding its way thru the nipple.

More than a few times I've had caps on the unfired chambers come loose or even fall off because of the recoil when the gun is fired.
If this happens and you don't notice it, the flash at the rear of the cylinder can find its way into the next chambers powder charge and ignite it.

I also recall one instance where a guys brass frame pistols recoil shield was damaged because the gun was shot with heavy powder loads.
That recoil shield is whacked every time the gun fires and the cylinder slams back against it. In the case of this brass framed gun, the brass had deep impressions of the back of the cylinder in it and these allowed the cylinder to move so far back that the caps on the unfired chambers would hit it, often causing the caps to fire too.

 

[Rat]

Yes, Dixie used to state in their advertisements for brass framed revolvers, that brass frame guns will "shoot loose" over time.

 

[Rifleman1776]

The only chain fire I have personally witnessed was when I watched an individual load his c&b revolver. He did not grease over the cylinders and I pointed this out to him. He cussed me and shot. Chain fire, all six went off at the same time. I no longer own a c&b revolver but would grease over if I had one.

 

[8 BORE]

Powder then corn meal then ball. Correct cap on nipple. No bare nipples on loaded chambers.
THIS SHOULD PREVENT ANY CHAIN FIRES

 

[8 BORE]

If you can find and afford a
RUGER OLD ARMY.Buy it

 

[jimhallam]

In the UK after the Dunblane killings there was a media storm and BOTH main parties got on the bandwagon to "ban handguns because that would ensure that there would be no more killings with them".
Of COURSE the only people affected were the law-abiding certificate holders.

As a result, Uberti brought out a C&B version of the M1873 Colt SAA as a "look-alike" to sell to Brits who had lost their genuine ones.
The problem with them was that the original design with CARTRIDGES allowed the cartridge base to recoil against the standing breech. (With a BLANK cartridge the flash hole is enlarged so there is more "slam" and the primer which could back out is re-seated -- - one good reason to not reload blanks).
With the C&B version it was the CYLINDER which was able to move back slightly and so the "ratchet" at the back became damaged. Similarly, with poorly-fitted PERCUSSION cylinders or overlong nipples it is easy to see how chain fires might occur.

 

[bang]

Still good idea to pack lube on ball. Provides some security for chain fire plus provides lube ahead of ball and help to keep lead fouling down.