Castor oil / Denatured alcohol patch lube users question

[Dr5x]

First of all, Merry Christmas to all. I have been under the weather myself lately.
But Dutch has something here that is true. I knew Bill Large long ago in Ohio, one of the best barrel makers ever. He told me a patched ball shooter would get " shot smooth" and lose accuracy.
Old timers would plug the hole and fill the bore with urine overnight to etch some friction back.

I understand that the urine etch was common during the Civil War.
Dutch

 

[Desperate Lee]

Dutch
Merry Christmas to you also. I pray for a good year and a happy year for you and yours. To all the new friends i have made on this forum and the other forums i am on i wish every one merry Christmas and very good year to you and all your families. Without family we are just lonely souls in this world.
Desperate Lee

 

[Dr5x]

Dutch
Merry Christmas to you also. I pray for a good year and a happy year for you and yours. To all the new friends i have made on this forum and the other forums i am on i wish every one merry Christmas and very good year to you and all your families. Without family we are just lonely souls in this world.
Desperate Lee

You have been a welcome addition to my extending family.

Dutch

 

[Desperate Lee]

Thank you Dutch i am honored. I have most of my supplies now and will start on my 45 and 50 cal PRB pistols. Should be interesting.
Gary

 

[Grenadier1758]

There is NOT ONE SINGLE ML PERSON IN THE ST LOUIS AREA I cantle to about my hoppy and the fun of coaching and experimentation.
Merry Christmas and hopefully an Adequate New Year.
Dutch

Of course Merry Christmas to you too.

@Dr5x, I do have to respectfully disagree with the statement above. Members of the Gemmer Muzzle Loading Gun Club in St. Louis have reached out over the last several years looking for ways for you and us to share our experiences and findings.

We understand your health issues and understand that we would have to visit with you to help you to participate with us.

 

[Dr5x]

Of course Merry Christmas to you too.

@Dr5x, I do have to respectfully disagree with the statement above. Members of the Gemmer Muzzle Loading Gun Club in St. Louis have reached out over the last several years looking for ways for you and us to share our experiences and findings.

We understand your health issues and understand that we would have to visit with you to help you to participate with us.

I apologize Grenadier is quite correct. His group has offered repeatedly to entertain me with meetings with his very active group..
I have turned down the offer I guess because I'm more of one on one guy which is odd as I lectured groups of 165 and above at Washington University.
Perhaps it's because I don't like arguments and so many regard my findings controversial.
Spence questioned my explanation of why too slick a patch lube affected accuracy and I realized my explanation of the phenomenon of my increasing accuracy that went hand in hand with my use of patch material that sequentially used less and less oil in lubrication. That explanation was more of a guess as I have no idea why that evidence is true. It just is.
A nice gentleman from Illinois in town to visit his daughter had recently purchased my efforts on black powder accuracy but hadn't read it. As a result our conversation was like that of two well intentioned people speaking different languages. For it to have made much sense would have for me to verbally recite my entire first 39 pages to convey my thoughts.
Here again I reiterate my thought that while systematic approach worked wonders for me and for a whole bunch of other good folks it apparently is NOT the only way to achieve accuracy although I am damn if I can see how they do it.
I guess I feel insecure unless I'm singing to my own choir. which is likely to be a bit stupid on my part.My health problems tend to keep me within a short distance of plumbing and strange surroundings make me nervous. I think being 91 and a few months 92 has something to explain my timidity
I enjoyed writing Spence the other night. It was a rare treat or me. and best of all it made me think.
Dutch

 

[Frontier's]

Just curious but what patch lube have you found to be to slick?

 

[Dr5x]

Just curious but what patch lube have you found to be to slick?

I would have to say all of them tend to be too slick for me.To explain that arrogant statement I wipe between shots so I don't have varying and always increasing amounts of cursive residue from prior shots to contend with.
I was getting well centered hits but some higher and some lower. as nothing else changed between shots but the varying, unintentional, amount of lube, whatever, I ws putting on each shooting patch, I set out to find a way to have each and every patch strip lubed exactly like every other strip. Total consistency.
As I developed what became my Almost dry patch lube system I was very much surprised to see that the less lubrication I had in the patch cloth the tighter the groups became. . I was using water soluble oil in those days. and I ended up with shooting patches that gave me very tight groups that was so lightly lubricated that you couldn't feel any slickness . just smell it.
As a promotional effort I sent out. I thought, was a sample of my prelude patch material. I found to my embarrassment that I had been sending out a totally unlubricated piece of cloth. That's how light it was.
I would prepare a number of strips, roll thump and store in a plastic container. I over did it and a year later was using up the last of that batch. There was no apparent break down of the fiber. Otheroils that blend with water might be different. Ballistol seems to work just the same but I never tried it.
How about that for a short answer.
Dutch.

 

[Philip Lebow]

Gents, I have used Dutch's system for a few decades, on and off. The problem I had with excess and prelubed patches,
is that the excess lube changed the fit and friction of the ball. Second, if the ball moves too easily, inconsistent powder
burn affects velocity, and thus group size. Although this is the ML group, cast bullet cartridge rifle shooters get this effect, when the cast bullet is undersize for the groove diameter. In cartridge rifles, the reason we have to crimp the cases is to retard
bullet movement until we can get a consistent burn time and pressure.
In ML rifle, we have the same issues, but instead of crimping, we control the issues with patch thickness, patch lube and
ball diameter. Powder charge has some effect, but is more related to rifling twist for projectile weight and ballistic coefficient
which with a round ball, is not such a problem. BC is very low, so we use slow twists.
I used soluble oil for years. I took occasional breaks from ML rifles, and when I had used up all the soluble oil (similar to lard based cutting oils for machining) Dutch recommended Ballistol. I have only short experience with the Ballistol dry patch
in my ancient TC Renegade and Lyman rifles, but at 7-1 and 8-1 they seem to have the same accuracy as with the previous lube. These are both .54 cal rifles, and starting the balls is hard requiring a hard rap on the short starter.

Dutch's system made the difference between being an also-ran and a winner, at the old 80's 'Rondyvoo' shoots where you didn't
have to wear fringed leather Jockey shorts in order to participate. I was allowed in with a period shirt, hat, and Dyer mocs,
but with my Levi's on. But that's another story.

Phil

 

[Carbon 6]

Wait a minute, Don't some competition guys use sheets of teflon for patching ?
Teflon is one of the slipperiest materials known and is as slippery as wet ice.

I still don't think "slipperiness" is the problem, and I have seen no evidence to support such an assertion.
Now too much lube, is a different story altogether and unrelated to slipperiness.
More lube does not necessarily make something slipperier.

I think we are missing a lot and jumping to conclusions.

 

[Dphar1950]

Just remember that alcohol will have water in it to some greater or lessor extent. If I use oil I use Neatsfoot. I don't understand what the Castor oil would do that Neatsfoot would not.
I like Tallow or a mix of beeswax and Neatsfoot oil to form something like a stiff grease. But some rifles will shoot best with a high friction lube but these usually require wiping every shot. Tallow, Neatsfoot or the grease mentioned do not.

 

[Dr5x]

Gents, I have used Dutch's system for a few decades, on and off. The problem I had with excess and prelubed patches,
is that the excess lube changed the fit and friction of the ball. Second, if the ball moves too easily, inconsistent powder
burn affects velocity, and thus group size. Although this is the ML group, cast bullet cartridge rifle shooters get this effect, when the cast bullet is undersize for the groove diameter. In cartridge rifles, the reason we have to crimp the cases is to retard
bullet movement until we can get a consistent burn time and pressure.
In ML rifle, we have the same issues, but instead of crimping, we control the issues with patch thickness, patch lube and
ball diameter. Powder charge has some effect, but is more related to rifling twist for projectile weight and ballistic coefficient
which with a round ball, is not such a problem. BC is very low, so we use slow twists.
I used soluble oil for years. I took occasional breaks from ML rifles, and when I had used up all the soluble oil (similar to lard based cutting oils for machining) Dutch recommended Ballistol. I have only short experience with the Ballistol dry patch
in my ancient TC Renegade and Lyman rifles, but at 7-1 and 8-1 they seem to have the same accuracy as with the previous lube. These are both .54 cal rifles, and starting the balls is hard requiring a hard rap on the short starter.

Dutch's system made the difference between being an also-ran and a winner, at the old 80's 'Rondyvoo' shoots where you didn't
have to wear fringed leather Jockey shorts in order to participate. I was allowed in with a period shirt, hat, and Dyer mocs,
but with my Levi's on. But that's another story.

Phil

I VALUE MR. LEBOW'S OPINION AAS HE IS ONE OF MY EARLIEST SUBSCRIBERS.
HE SHOOTS ML FOR FUN BUT FOR A LIVING MAKES CARTRIDGE RIFLES FOR OVERSEAS SNIPERS WITH EFFECTIVE RANGES IIN OR NEAR 2,000 YARDS.
HE GETS SOME WILD STORIES IN FEEDBACK.
DUTCH SCHOULTZ

 

[Dr5x]

Just remember that alcohol will have water in it to some greater or lessor extent. If I use oil I use Neatsfoot. I don't understand what the Castor oil would do that Neatsfoot would not.
I like Tallow or a mix of beeswax and Neatsfoot oil to form something like a stiff grease. But some rifles will shoot best with a high friction lube but these usually require wiping every shot. Tallow, Neatsfoot or the grease mentioned do not.

I CAN'T IMAGINE USING THE ABOVE RECOMMEDED GREASES BUT I YOU USED MAYONAISSE AND GOT GOOD GROUPS I WOULD BE FIRST IN LINE TO TELL YOU TO HANG IN THERE.
THERE IS LITTLE OR NO POINT IN TELLING ME ABOUT YOUR LUBE IF YOU DON'T TELL ABOUT THE GROUPS THAEY PRODUCE FOR YOU. THE ONLY WAY OF JUDGING A LOAD IS DOES IT DO THE JOB. DOES IT GIVE YOU SATISFACTORY RESULTS.
"I USE REINDEER POOP AND GET GROUPS THE SIZE OF BELOIT WISCONSIN." IS AN UNINSPIRING STORY.
DUTCH SCHOULTZ

 

[Carbon 6]

THERE IS LITTLE OR NO POINT IN TELLING ME ABOUT YOUR LUBE IF YOU DON'T TELL ABOUT THE GROUPS THAEY PRODUCE FOR YOU. THE ONLY WAY OF JUDGING A LOAD IS DOES IT DO THE JOB. DOES IT GIVE YOU SATISFACTORY RESULTS.
"I USE REINDEER POOP AND GET GROUPS THE SIZE OF BELOIT WISCONSIN." IS AN UNINSPIRING STORY.
DUTCH SCHOULTZ

I like my lube(s). It's a trophy winner and a squirrel brain remover.
Even a "better" lube wouldn't do me any good. My guns already shoot better than me, and I've split the hair 6 times already.

 

[Dr5x]

I like my lube(s). It's a trophy winner and a squirrel brain remover.
Even a "better" lube wouldn't do me any good. My guns already shoot better than me, and I've split the hair 6 times already.

Now this is what I like except Carbon6 doesn't tell us what his lubes are. He aims for a small target and wins prizes That's all that counts and while I probably might have done poorly with carbs lubes, they are doing the job for him and his advice is valuable
Dutch

 

[Carbon 6]

Carbon6 doesn't tell us what his lubes are.

I have, many times before in many threads. Many lubes work, even no lube can work.

There is much more to your "system" than just lube, isn't there ?

 

[longcruise]

I used Dutch's dry patch method extensively for a number of years. Always with great success. It's a system that makes consistency very easy. I've never used the ballistol since I have remaining supply of the good NAPA stuff. I usually mixed it with alcohol because it was very quick to dry.

Lately I've been using olive oil in 91% rubbing alcohol but testing is incomplete. It will partially separate after sitting for a while so needs a shake up.

In my own not so expert opinion consistency is one of the most important aspects of accuracy. Dutch's system can make a brand new shooter consistent without even thinking about it.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Wait a minute, Don't some competition guys use sheets of teflon for patching ?
Teflon is one of the slipperiest materials known and is as slippery as wet ice.

I still don't think "slipperiness" is the problem, and I have seen no evidence to support such an assertion.
Now too much lube, is a different story altogether and unrelated to slipperiness.
More lube does not necessarily make something slipperier.

I think we are missing a lot and jumping to conclusions.

Yes the Teflon patching was and in used by a number of top shooters. The material is quite thick and the loading is quite tight so the major issue of slickness is offset by the tightness of the patch. The Teflon seems to fill all the voids in the weave of the cloth and effectively prevents gas bypass. So while the Teflon is very slick, but the combination makes for good precision shooting.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I apologize Grenadier is quite correct. His group has offered repeatedly to entertain me with meetings with his very active group..
I have turned down the offer I guess because I'm more of one on one guy which is odd as I lectured groups of 165 and above at Washington University.
Perhaps it's because I don't like arguments and so many regard my findings controversial.
Spence questioned my explanation of why too slick a patch lube affected accuracy and I realized my explanation of the phenomenon of my increasing accuracy that went hand in hand with my use of patch material that sequentially used less and less oil in lubrication. That explanation was more of a guess as I have no idea why that evidence is true. It just is.
A nice gentleman from Illinois in town to visit his daughter had recently purchased my efforts on black powder accuracy but hadn't read it. As a result our conversation was like that of two well intentioned people speaking different languages. For it to have made much sense would have for me to verbally recite my entire first 39 pages to convey my thoughts.
Here again I reiterate my thought that while systematic approach worked wonders for me and for a whole bunch of other good folks it apparently is NOT the only way to achieve accuracy although I am damn if I can see how they do it.
I guess I feel insecure unless I'm singing to my own choir. which is likely to be a bit stupid on my part.My health problems tend to keep me within a short distance of plumbing and strange surroundings make me nervous. I think being 91 and a few months 92 has something to explain my timidity
I enjoyed writing Spence the other night. It was a rare treat or me. and best of all it made me think.
Dutch

I think that while we may have some differences in opinion with respect to your findings, I am certain that we would provide essentially a peer review of your findings and provide an insight that would have made them perhaps less controversial. Based on the fact that members of the Gemmer Muzzle Loaders have set records at Friendship and won the tiara at Bevel Brothers' Chunk Gun matches, there would be a lot of information to share.

 

[Carbon 6]

Yes the Teflon patching was and in used by a number of top shooters. The material is quite thick and the loading is quite tight so the major issue of slickness is offset by the tightness of the patch. The Teflon seems to fill all the voids in the weave of the cloth and effectively prevents gas bypass. So while the Teflon is very slick, but the combination makes for good precision shooting.

Seems to downplay the significance of lube then. Making rifling engagement more important. Or at least illustrates relationship.