Cast v swaged balls

[Gene L]

I feel sure this has been addressed, but nothing showed up in Search. I was advised by someone who ought to know that cast balls, sprue up, was the way to go. But I use swaged because I don't have the wherewithall to cast bullets. So what are your reckonings on this subject?

 

[Le Loup]

As the ball is going to twist in flight I don't see as though it matters which way up the ball is. In a rifle I always made sure the sprue was up out of shear habit, but in my smoothbore I don't care which way it sits because it is only secured with wads, not a patch (per 18th century method).

Keith.

 

[Black Hand]

I was advised by someone who ought to know that cast balls, sprue up, was the way to go. But I use swaged because I don't have the wherewithall to cast bullets. So what are your reckonings on this subject?

The ball rotates & tumbles in flight, so the sprue will move with respect to where it started. At worst, cast balls could be problematic IF someone isn't paying attention and doesn't fill the mold properly - sometimes a void can form at the sprue as the lead contracts on cooling.

Is one type better than the other? No.

I cast ball on my porch using a small butane stove, my ladle and a mold. Not much more is required. One can cast 40-50 ball in about an hour in a single-cavity mold at a fraction of the cost after the initial outlay for the mold (I made the ladle I use).

 

[Gene L]

I'm sure the ball rotates, not sure the ball tumbles in flight in a rifle.

 

[necchi]

not sure the ball tumbles in flight in a rifle.

Well there it is,, maybe "tumble" was the wrong word.
Imperfect or out of balance "rotation" is what can happen when a ball isn't made right,, be it cast or swaged.
At issue is with an individual casting his own,, or most custom cast ball available on the market goes through a little more quality control inspection and/or care then mass produced swaged ball.
Once the investment is made and short learning curve is mastered,, home cast ball will out preform swaged ball any day of the week all year long,, year after year.

 

[FishDFly]

Line shooters for the most part use cast balls versus swaged. If you weigh 100 swaged balls you will find a larger variation in weight compared to weighing 100 cast balls.

There has been a lot of discussion about which (Speer or Hornady) has more variation in the past.

When folks shoot for state titles, most are using cast balls.

 

[Juice Jaws]

I remember reading years ago in Muzzle Blast I think, the Bevel Brothers done all kinds of testing , sprue up, down, sideways, and they could not tell any big different.

 

[necchi]

If you weigh 100 swaged balls you will find a larger variation in weight compared to weighing 100 cast balls.

Heck, all you have to do is roll a swaged ball across a table like a marble,,
,, guess what? It ain't round.

 

[necchi]

the Bevel Brothers done all kinds of testing ,

The Bevel Brothers where "paid".
Ya don't get "paid" for years of articles if you say bad things

 

[Juice Jaws]

The Bevel Brothers where "paid".
Ya don't get "paid" for years of articles if you say bad things

That's true, and don't forget they have to write about something every month. But saying sprue up or down or sideways isn't a bad thing. To me its a middle of the road.

 

[Dr5x]

SWAGED BALLS ARE VERY PRETTY BUT AS A BELIEVER IN SHOOTING ONLY SOLID LEAD BALLS WITH NO AIR BUBBLES OR INCLUSION IN THEM TO MAKE THEM SPIN OFF COURSE I HAAVE TO POINT OUT THAT SWAGED BALLS WEIGH OUT ALL OVER THE PLACE.
I HAVE LEARNED TO WEIGH OUT BALLS AND TO ELIMINATE ALL THOSE MORE THAN ONE GRAIN LIGHTER THAN THE HEAVIEST BALLS
OUT OF 100 EXPENSIVE SWAGED BALLS, THAT ONE GRAIN LIMITATION WILL HAVE ELIMINATING ABOIT 22 TO
25 PERCENT OF THEM.
CAST BALLS IF DONE WELL AND SPEEDILY WILL RUN MAYBE 5 PERCENT LIGHT.

IF YOU DON'T FEEL OFF WEIGHT BALLS CAUSE FLYERS GO AHEAD WITH SWAGED BALLS.

INCIDENTALLY, SWAGED BALLS THAT DO PASS THE WEIGHT TEST ARE, OF COURSE EXCELLENT.

DUTCH

I feel sure this has been addressed, but nothing showed up in Search. I was advised by someone who ought to know that cast balls, sprue up, was the way to go. But I use swaged because I don't have the wherewithall to cast bullets. So what are your reckonings on this subject?

 

[Black Hand]

Ok - the ball rotates 360 degrees along all axes while in flight. In other words, it tumbles...

 

[Dr5x]

THE BEVEL BROTHERS WHO I MET IN KANSAS CITY WHILE PASSING THROUGH THERE GAVE ME A GOOD REVIEW IN MUZZLE BLASTS AND HAVE DONE ALL SORTS OF TESTING AND EXPERIMENTING. . I GET THEM CONFUSED BUT I THINK IT IS BEVEL DOWN WHO HAD GRADUATED HIMSELF INTO CHUNK GUN COMPETITIONS WITH SOME SUCESS.
IT IS POSSIBLE TO CONDEMN PRACTICES BUT MORE UPBEAT TO SUGGEST BETTER PRACTICES WITHOUT RUFFLING ANYONE'S FEATHERS. I FEEL THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF WAY WAYS TO BE A SUCCESSFUL SHOOTERSOME ARE QUITE MYSTIFYING. I ALWAYS SAY IF IT WORKS FOR YOU STICK WITH IT. I KNOW PEOPLE WHO DO THINGS I THINK ARE WRONG, BUT IF WHAT THEY DO GIVES THEM THE RESULT THEY WANT, I'M ALL FOR IT.
WHETHER THE SPRUE IS ALWAYS CENTERED OR LEFT JUST ANY OLD WAY HAS CAUSED SOME CONTROVERSEY BUT AFTER YOU BAH THE TOP OF THE BALL WITH YOUR SHORT STARTER THE SPRUE GETS A BIT LOST IN THE NOW MORE FLATENED FACE OF THE BALL,. ALWAYS CENTERING THE BALL IS JUST ANOTHER TINY TOUCH OF BEING AS CONSISTENT AS YOU CAN, SHOT AFTER SHOT. IT IS NOT A BIG DEAL..

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO GO TO CONCIDERABLE EFFORTO SHOOT ONLY ROUND BALLS, FORGETTING THAT AS SOON AS YOU START THE BALL IT EXTRUDES INTO THE RIFLING AND THE ONLY PART OF THE BALL THAT IS STILL ROUND IS THE BACK END THAT YOU REST ON THE POWDER.

DUTCH SCHOULTZ

That's true, and don't forget they have to write about something every month. But saying sprue up or down or sideways isn't a bad thing. To me its a middle of the road.

 

[Dr5x]

THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO SHOOT ROUND BALLS ARE SMOOTHBORE SHOOTERS, AS THR BALL DOESN'T SPIN, BEING OFF BALANCE WOULD HAVE NO EFFECT ON THEIR FLIGHT., WHAT YOU SAY IS QUITEVTRUE.

DUTCH

As the ball is going to twist in flight I don't see as though it matters which way up the ball is. In a rifle I always made sure the sprue was up out of shear habit, but in my smoothbore I don't care which way it sits because it is only secured with wads, not a patch (per 18th century method).

Keith.

 

[Huntschool]

Dutch:

I will argue your post regarding the only people that shoot RB's are smoothbore shooters..... Where did you get that idea from..... You are in St. Louis.... Home of the Gemmer club.... think all those guys back in the 70's and 80's were shooting conical rounds in their rifles..... NOT.... I have been to too many of their shoots back in the day, including the freeze ass shoots when RB's with spit patches froze in the barrels before they could be driven down on the powder charge. These were Long rifles and Hawken guns alike.

That idea of smooth bore only is plain BS.....

The sprue (casting gate) will actually take up the loading pressure and deform more into a RB than to flatten out a surface on the ball.....

Just a real Holland Dutch opinion......

 

[Huntschool]

OK, so now that that is over..... I weigh my swadged (swedged) RB's and keep them in units of weight. This is really for target shooting not necessarily for hunting. My groups differ ver little between the two sources but their are some differences.

With cast RB's I generally remove most of the sprue and then roll the balls between two pieces of tempered glass. This tends to eliminate the casting gate mark and seems to perform quite well withing the scope of accuracy that I am looking for. Patch thickness and powder charge make up the other factors in an accurate load.

 

[Cowboy]

I will only add my 2 cents from my very own personal experience.

Cast balls if done correctly are superior to swaged balls when it comes to consistentcy in weights if one was to purchase the same number in a group.

I do cast my own as well as for other’s that I shoot with. That being said, I do cast frequently on a regular basis.

As Dutch had mentioned, there is definitely a difference in weight variations up to even 3 grains with swaged balls. I’ve personally experienced this with hornady. Never weighed out a box of Speer so I have no comment on them?

I’m not going to get into sprue up or down, trajectory, or even loads.

Again, as Dutch had already mentioned, consistency in weight would have to go to Cast balls.

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[RAEDWALD]

The British Ordnance went over to compressed balls very early in the 19th century. The very large and expensive steam powered machines produced balls they found to be far more even in weight than cast ones and 1/64 heavier (no voids) for the same diameter. One would have thought that a 21st century company could make compressed balls more even in weight than 200 years ago. If compressed (swaged) balls today are less even than cast ones then someone is doing it very badly.

 

[TFoley]

I prefer my own cast products to store-bought becuase I'm a tightwad. I can cast ball for my .44cal revolvers for about 500 for a dollar of electricity - my lead, formerly from a local church - is free. I have around a 1/4 ton of it.

If I feel like throwing money away, I can go buy swaged ball from my LGS, but not for my ROA - .457 ball are not available here in UK that I know of - but .454 for the Walker.

They'd cost me about 16c EACH.

 

[Maven]

Re: sprue up v. sprue down. It may not matter, as per The Bevel Bros., but as CF bench rest shooters say, "If you can't be perfect, be consistent." In short, just seat the ball with the sprue in the same direction all the time. Btw, the advantage of having the sprue up, is that it can be clearly seen and adjusted if necessary prior to starting and seating the RB.