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cast iron bullets?

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MJuingong

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I have read in Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight, by David Edge and John Miles Paddock, (1988) on page 131, discussing hand-held firearms of the 15th century, that these "fired either lead or cast-iron shot; the latter was prized for its ability to pierce even the best plate armour."

This is the only work in which I have read about cast-iron bullets for small arms. Does anyone know of any other authority to this effect?
 
National Geographic had an article on this topic some scientists found an Inca who got killed with an iron roundball from a Spanish musket. I remembered reading it back then and your question reminded me so I looked it up and here it is:

To determine conclusively if the wound was caused by a gunshot, Cock and his team decided to use technology to examine the skull for any traces of metal residue around the edges of the wound. Cock, Goycochea and Murphy took the skull and other bones to Lima’s renowned Resomasa center for CT scanning. No evidence of metal emerged.

Undaunted, Cock turned to forensic scientist Tim Palmbach at the University of New Haven, who called in the university’s Henry C. Lee Institute of Forensic Science in Connecticut, one of the world’s foremost forensic facilities. “We tried to rule out all kinds of causes of the hole ”” a rock from a slingshot, spear, sledgehammer,” said Al Harper, executive director of the institute. “We were asking what could have been responsible for this pattern of injury.”

Harper and Palmbach then decided to view the skull with a powerful scanning electronic microscope. “We all thought it was a million-to-one chance that we would find any traces of metal on a skull that old, but it was worth a try,” Harper said.

They did. Edges of the holes in the skull and the entire bone plug were found to be impregnated with fragments of iron, a metal sometimes used for Spanish musket balls. It appears that a musket ball less than an inch in diameter had punched into the back of the skull and passed through the head, leaving pieces of iron deep inside the bone that stayed there for 500 years.

“This conclusively proves that the person was killed by a gunshot, and he is the first identified shooting victim in the Americas,” Cock said. Since the initial find, at least two other apparent gunshot victims have been identified.

http://press.nationalgeographic.co...-of-new-world-found-in-peruvian-inca-cemetery/
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I recall seeing that on Natgeo tv. I posted it because I had never heard of cast iron ball. Had this wound been from a pike or hablard it would have been square. But I wonder, a cast ball would have been expensive and unreplaceable in the field. So I wonder if it was wrought. Not as easy as casting but a blacksmith could do it with a portable forage... maybe :idunno:
 
Sure a lot of it used in cannon as grape and cannister, but I haven't a clue how it was made. But in the volumes used, I can't imagine they were produced individually on a forge. Perhaps no bearing on earlier use in shoulder arms, but it still begs the question of producing enough of those on forges for an army's shoulder arms.
 
I think it would be easy enough to forge, given a semi-spherical mold to shape it in. Probably take a minute or two. On a recent show, it took a blacksmith and helper about that much time to shape a knob on the end of a rod (@ 2").
 
I don't know as I'm nobodies idea of a black smith. However getting iron molten for casting was a complex deal, while getting iron malable is just charcoal and a bellows.
 
Might boil down to foundry or field? It might be possible to cast thousands of these balls at a time at the foundry, or forge one at a time in the field.
 
That sure might be. I would sure like to see more about them. Or ballistic test, I wonder if it would be better for armor. 'Spanish proof was already famous as bolt stoppers before ball started flying around Europe.
 
Sir Anne de Montmorency, Constable of France, was killed by one of those iron balls in 1567, I believe.

I dunno about a boy named Sue, but there was a man named Anne...

(and one named Anna, for that matter - an English king of East Anglia in the seventh century, IIRC)
 
There are any number of references of the Spanish using iron and copper for musket and escopeta balls. Not really sure why unless they felt it penetrated better. Since lead is heavier than either, it won out in the end. The ability to temper lead balls to a harder surface has been known for centuries and may be part of why other metals were phased out.
 
Wes/Tex said:
There are any number of references of the Spanish using iron and copper for musket and escopeta balls. Not really sure why unless they felt it penetrated better.

They were armor piercing, a useful trait back when folks routinely wore iron armor.
 
Cynthialee said:
Kind of makes me want to get an old large bore musket and give it a go with some large steel ball bearings.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and the coffee mug. Haven't tried iron cuzz I can't find any, but steel bearings will sensitize you to the sight of multiple puffs of dust for great distances behind your target. Gotta really be aware of your backstops, cuzz they go on and on across the terrain like the Energizer bunny. :hatsoff:

Lead deforms mostly on impact, which greatly cuts its potential for ricochets from what I've seen in desert dust puffs. You often get the Hollywood ricochet sound with the deformed lead, too. Never heard a peep from a steel bearing though.

All this makes me think that back in the day I might even have preferred iron to lead, just thinking about the potential of that large iron ball rattling around through massed troops. Call it a small version of what you get with iron cannon balls and the damage they did bouncing around after first impact.
 
I never looked it up but understood that lead was in short supply for Mexico after it broke with Spain. So copper was the go to during the Texas war and the Mexican war.
 
Whole lot of copper in some regions of Mexico, so it makes sense. There were even surface deposits of pure metal copper in one area a little south of Arizona.
 
There are any number of references of the Spanish using iron and copper for musket and escopeta balls.

I'd like to see some of those. I've been trying to find some for years.

I thought that the National Geographic finding that because there were rust marks around the skull hole it HAD to be a musket ball, and not a round, pike tip on the base of a halberd pike, used to pop a hole in the skull of the dying Incan while mopping up the battlefield, a bit of a leap of a conclusion, since they didn't document the iron "musket" balls being with the supplies carried by the Conquistadors, and since they didn't carry cannon (because they never entertained the idea of a hit by a load of grapeshot using iron balls).

:idunno:

LD
 
The only way pure lead can be hardened is by adding an alloy such as antimony. It cannot be done with any type of heat treating.
 
Speaking of GRAPESHOT...., this was funny...,

(underline emphasis I added)

Did cannons originally shoot grapes? Well, no, of course not. Actually olives were the first ammunition of choice in the middle ages, when not firing large rounded stones. Cannon first appeared in the Middle East, and then in the Byzantine Empire which hugged the Mediterranean, where olives were plentiful and readily available. The large pits worked as effective penetrating projectiles, and the oleaginous flesh of the olive readily ignited from the flash of the gunpowder, and inflicted painful burns in and around the entry wound. In the right conditions (especially at close range) the victim's clothing often caught fire.



So where did the "grape" come into grapeshot? As the use of cannon spread into central and northern Europe, where olives have to be imported, a change of ammunition was required. Acorns, while readily available, have very unsatisfactory flight characteristics, and are too light to be an effective ammunition. Peach pits were better, but they tended to split in flight. The humble grape, it turned out, was the best replacement for the olive, though the smaller seeds rarely produced a fatal wound all by themselves. The sugars in the grape, while not producing the "Greek fire" effect of a burning olive shot, still tended to cause smoldering and flaring in the victim's clothing and hair. The yeasts on the grape skin introduced persistent and disabling infections in the wounds; and artillerists soon learned that one grape hitting a soldier in the eye was enough to put them out of the battle for at least the day. In England and northern France, where English speakers first became familiar with the innovative multi-projectile loads, it was grapes that were most commonly used. Hence grapeshot.

I thought grapeshot was made of lead? Yes, from the mid-1600s on, lead and iron balls replaced the reliable old grape. While iron did rust, both kept their shape for years at a time, whereas grapes would have to be replaced after just a few weeks on the ammunition wagons. The metal projectiles were also just as readily available in the winter, which was not the case for grapes. Lead and iron balls traveled much further from the mouth of the cannon, and they delivered a much harder blow on contact. Flight characteristics were superior to both grapes and olives. On the downside, the burning effects were sacrificed. And so was the option of eating the ammunition if rations were low.


Why aren't grapes used in warfare today? Grapes, olives, dates and "all tree fruit projectiles of any kind" were outlawed by the Geneva Convention on the Amelioration of Wounds in Time of War. Indeed the only vegetables permitted as weaponry are root crops (potatoes, yams, peanuts, cassava, etc.).

:rotf: :rotf:

The above is actually found online I'm sure it's a gag but you can't tell by just looking online.
:haha:

LD
 
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