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Cartridge Box Identification

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RyanD

32 Cal
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I hope I am posting this in the right place. I picked up a used cartridge box from a guy who was getting out of Revolutionary War reenacting. I didn’t think to ask him at the time, but I have never noticed anyone else with this style box, nor have I seen similar ones for sale. It has one large flap (bigger than the box), and then underneath a second smaller flap.

Just curious if anyone knows anything about this style of cartridge box? Thanks!
 

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I hope I am posting this in the right place. I picked up a used cartridge box from a guy who was getting out of Revolutionary War reenacting. I didn’t think to ask him at the time, but I have never noticed anyone else with this style box, nor have I seen similar ones for sale. It has one large flap (bigger than the box), and then underneath a second smaller flap.

Just curious if anyone knows anything about this style of cartridge box? Thanks!

Hi Ryan,

These were officially known as "Cartouche Pouches" in the 18th century, though sometimes they were also listed as "Cartridge Pouches" by some Americans.

Cartouche (lesser used Cartridge) Boxes were what we usually call "Belly Boxes" today and were worn on the waist belt.

The style of double "cover or flap" Cartouche Pouch with two adjustment buckles you have is actually FIW time period until the Warrant of 1768 dropped the adjustment buckles and interior flap.

HOWEVER, British Forces who first invested Boston may to most likely would have still been using them, especially the first Regiments sent here.

American Militia usually didn't use the adjustment buckles and "buff" or Pipe Clay whitened straps in either the FIW nor the AWI, except if they captured them during the AWI from British Soldiers.

You may enjoy scrolling down through the slide show below, to see more:
Military - Arms & Accoutrements - British Cartridge Boxes & Pouches | PDF | Military Science | Military Units And Formations (scribd.com)

Gus
 
American Militia usually didn't use the adjustment buckles and "buff" or Pipe Clay whitened straps in either the FIW nor the AWI, except if they captured them during the AWI from British Soldiers.

Gus

I actually knew this back in the late 1970's when I made my AWI period Militia Cartouche Pouch, though I decided to use the two adjustment buckles (NOT the buff straps) on mine. I figured it would be good for both the FIW and AWI. ALSO, I did it JUST BECAUSE I like the double adjustment buckles and when I portrayed a civilian militia soldier, my background was I had served with the Regulars in the past.

Gus
 
I hope I am posting this in the right place. I picked up a used cartridge box from a guy who was getting out of Revolutionary War reenacting. I didn’t think to ask him at the time, but I have never noticed anyone else with this style box, nor have I seen similar ones for sale. It has one large flap (bigger than the box), and then underneath a second smaller flap.

Just curious if anyone knows anything about this style of cartridge box? Thanks!
Can't say for sure, but looks a lot like the boxes from the Patriot movie. I have a similar box. It appears to be a militia-type, could be a movie item; many of the items from Master & Commander, the Partiot, Last of the Mohicans, etc., showed up for sale. I know a guy personally who made buttons, hat plates, etc., for several movies; is a sculptor who had a casting business. Also know of people who would get an contract to make accoutrements for movies, and would specify them manufactured in India. Your box may be just that, a generic type for movies.
 
Hi Ryan,

These were officially known as "Cartouche Pouches" in the 18th century, though sometimes they were also listed as "Cartridge Pouches" by some Americans.

Cartouche (lesser used Cartridge) Boxes were what we usually call "Belly Boxes" today and were worn on the waist belt.

The style of double "cover or flap" Cartouche Pouch with two adjustment buckles you have is actually FIW time period until the Warrant of 1768 dropped the adjustment buckles and interior flap.

HOWEVER, British Forces who first invested Boston may to most likely would have still been using them, especially the first Regiments sent here.

American Militia usually didn't use the adjustment buckles and "buff" or Pipe Clay whitened straps in either the FIW nor the AWI, except if they captured them during the AWI from British Soldiers.

You may enjoy scrolling down through the slide show below, to see more:
Military - Arms & Accoutrements - British Cartridge Boxes & Pouches | PDF | Military Science | Military Units And Formations (scribd.com)

Gus

Thank you! This is exactly the kind of information I was hoping someone might have. Very interesting and very informative.

Do you happen to know why they decided to move away from the double flap?
 
Can't say for sure, but looks a lot like the boxes from the Patriot movie. I have a similar box. It appears to be a militia-type, could be a movie item; many of the items from Master & Commander, the Partiot, Last of the Mohicans, etc., showed up for sale. I know a guy personally who made buttons, hat plates, etc., for several movies; is a sculptor who had a casting business. Also know of people who would get an contract to make accoutrements for movies, and would specify them manufactured in India. Your box may be just that, a generic type for movies.

That is really interesting. Now I feel the need to go back and watch those films to see if I can spot something similar.
 
Thank you! This is exactly the kind of information I was hoping someone might have. Very interesting and very informative.

Do you happen to know why they decided to move away from the double flap?

Ryan,
I want to make it clear that I don't have the historic documentation to answer your question unequivocally. Actually, I doubt there is still such documentation extant. This, because if it did indeed exist, it was most likely internal Tower documents and the fire in Tower of London in the mid 19th century probably wiped out such records. So, my answer is from informed speculation only, which means it's my best guess both from using the different time periods gear and from knowledge I've gained from researching these things and from leather working experience/design.

First of all, British Ordnance in the 18th century spent money like it was going out of style on some things, but was notoriously cheap on other things. They usually erred on the CHEAP side, though. They also did try to improve weapons and gear as time went on. Occasionally they came up with something that was actually CHEAPER and BETTER at the same time and I think this is one of the areas they successfully accomplished both.

To begin with, the main purpose of the interior cover/flap on double cover/flap pouches was to give more protection against loss of cartridges and to inhibit rain/snow/mud from getting into the pouch and ruining the cartridges.

OK, now let's look at the following example of a converted Pre 1768 Cartouche Pouch. Though the double buckles LOOK flashy, the fact most were made from BRASS caused a real increase in the cost of the pouch. Brass was NOT cheap in the 18th century (this is one of my personal "stand on a soap box and scream about" items), so getting rid of them with the AWI period cartouche pouches significantly decreased the cost.

Now look at the sides of the leather pouch near the top of the wooden block inside. It looks like the sides are equal to the top of the wood block. SOME FIW boxes had rudimentary "ears" or tops of the side flaps that went above the surface of the block in a half circle design that helped keep cartridges inside the pouch and rain/snow/mud from getting in on the sides. However, these "ears" tops of the side flaps were not present on all pouches. Honestly, I'm not sure if the "ears" are present or not on the pouch below.

1651566254654.png



OK, the following pic of the AWI pouch does away with the large double brass buckles and DEFINATELY has the "ears" at the tops of the sides and in this case, they are a double thickness of leather sewn together to add strength.


1651563069744.png


The below picture really shows the top of the double leather thickness "ears" and you can really see how the single flap fits over it well to keep cartridges inside and protect them from the elements. This does away with the need and expense of the interior cover/flap of the double cover/flap pouches. Normally, they had small "japanned" or black painted Iron buckles on the bottom of the pouch to attach the straps, but you won't see that on some to many American pouches, where they just sewed the strap ends to the pouch.

1651562884454.png


To sum up, doing away with the expensive double brass buckles plus the improved "ears" on the sides of the pouch meant they did not have to use the more expensive double flap/covers of the FIW cartouche pouches and made the AWI period pouches better and cheaper.

Gus
 
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