Carriage expense?

[Glock19Fan]

I was just wondering why cannon carriages were so expensive? I have seen regular sized carriages sell for $3000+. It doesn't seem like much money is invested in the materials and the skill and labor required to put one together doesn't seem that complicated.

It seems like a very lucrative job could be made reproducing and selling these unless there is something that I am not aware of?

 

[Poor Private]

I think the big expense is the manufacturing of the wheels and axles.

 

[ChrisPer]

...there is something that I am not aware of?

Yep. :thumbsup:

 

[Alden]

Tubes are relatively inexpensive compared to the carriage and most of the expense there is in making the wheels and tires. Watch somebody make the round things on the carriage someday and you'll gain a new appreciation for it.

A unit I belonged to has a great grasshopper but didn't pass BAR inspection because it also cheaped out or didn't know better back during the bicentennial and used wagon wheels... I think the replacements alone were less than $2,000 made in North Carolina perhaps.

 

[Rod Lassey]

A correctly made Napoleon carriage with accoutrements will run closer to $8000.

Rod

 

[Rifleman1776]

Wheels are very difficult to make. Only a person with experience and proper equipment can make good, and correct, wheels. Also, I would think, the iron work blacksmithing would be neither simple or inexpensive. All of which explains why I do not own a full sized cannon. And, one 1/2" bore antique tube is on an incorrect carriage with really lousy wheels, all of which I made myself.

 

[rescuemike]

Just placing the ironwork on the wood requires extensive know how.. The iron is usually very very hot, placed onto the wooden part, and shrink fit when it cools.. Try that and see how fast you set the piece on fire!

I repair antique firearms, and I have a special appreciation for those artists and craftsmen of days gone by.. Just impossible to recreate some of their work.

 

[Coot]

Finding cured wood of the size and thickness needed for the carriage is not easy & not cheap & it is not going to be cut to shape on a hobbyist's bandsaw. As mentioned, the wheels (to be either correct or sturdy) need to be made by a specialist - most made today are both too light in construction & use hubs that date no further back than the 1880s. The ironwork is not too complex but is larger & heavier than many smiths are equipped to handle - the trunnion straps for anything much bigger than a swivel gun won't fit into a rivet forge or farrier's forge. Put it all together & add low demand & we have a formula for pricey carriages. If cannons were less expensive ............

 

[Wes/Tex]

Would also add that if you look at real cannon wheels, the spokes don't run straight out from hub to wheel rim...the rim is outboard to the hub's center and the spokes not only have to taper up but out as well and you need a bit of math knowledge to get that right. That and some good templates!! :wink:

 

[Coot]

It's called "dished" - it makes a much stronger & more stable wheel. Sort of like the comparison of a flat paper disc which will be floppy but a shallow funnel shape is much more stable. It also calls for the axle ends to be bent slightly down which allows the bottom spoke to be vertical while the top spoke leans away. This throws (a little) more of the wheel mud away from the load & also provides for the wheel to tend to run up the axle rather than off if the securing axle nut comes off. They knew what they were doing with wheels.

 

[Wes/Tex]

I knew somebody here could get the right terminology out there. First noted this when I got to crew a 3" ordnance rifle with a WBTS bunch. David, the gun's owner, cast his own pre-rifled projectiles and could keep them in a wash tub at 500-600 yards! Amazing!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Back in the 1990's when we fixed up a 2" galloper, the wheels alone cost 3/4 the total price of the carriage.

LD

 

[Billnpatti]

As others have said, the main cost is in the wheels. They are not as simple as one might think. They have to be made with a deep dish meaning that the spokes are set at an angle so that the rim is not directly over the hub but set well outside the hub to handle the sideways thrust of the barrel and the rest of the carriage when going over uneven ground. Building such a wheel requires more skill, knowledge and equipment than is required for a carriage wheel and you have to pay for that. These deep dish wheels were used for other things as well, such as freight wagons that were intended to haul a heavy load. If they had used regular wagon wheels or buggy wheels for carrying those heavy loads, the sideways thrust would have very quickly torn them apart. The wheelwright had to know the correct angle to make the spokes for each application and have the tools to do it. There is very little call for these deeply dished wheels now so the man who can make them correctly can charge dearly for them and you just have to dig deep. I would imagine that the best place to look would be in Amish country but even then, you have to make sure that the wheelwright knows how to make that specific kind of wheel.

 

[kaintuck]

need some?
If you PM me I can give you a name of a local Amish wheelwright. Years back, my 39" set for my 2-1/4" napol tube cost me $500, and a 1 year wait....
they were made for the cannon carriage, i think he said a 3degree dish?~ all i know is he made some there once that were 6 ft tall....and would take 2 MEN to handle each of those wheels~people come from all over america to have him make these white oak and steel wheels!
the tread on my wheels was around 2" and 1/4" thick iron.....they will out last me i guess!
and, no, i sold 'ol Paris' to a fellow in Texas last year......she shore was fun!~but ATE a can of black powder fairly quick!!!!!
:rotf:

as for the carriage...we made it ourselves, Jacob and i, over a years period, white oak and steel, the plans can be bought from Dixie Gun Works. A daunting task!....getting those cheek bolts to pass thru without hitting the cross bolts/plates all took a little math in getting it right!

cheap? time + materials.....I will charge 5K do do another! :surrender:

 

[satx78247]

IF you have a source for HEAVY & SEASONED hardwood (for example, a friend who is a sawyer), the proper kind of saw/woodworking tools AND a friend in "the plain community" to make the wheels/axels (wheelwright work is a separate artistry/trade, even in the Amish/Mennonite community.), I would believe that you could do WELL as a carriage-maker.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, satx

 

[Rod Lassey]

It can be done, with skill & patience---and the right tools. I'm a member of the Ft. Buford 6th Infantry (Indian Wars era), a fellow member built a carriage for our 12-pounder mountain howitzer. The wheels were purchased elswhere, along with some of the iron, but he built the trail, and put the rest together.

Quite a few guys have built naval carriages or truck, they are quite a bit simpler to build (no big spoked wheels), although everything in the truck is built with odd angles, nothing's square, instead it follows the taper of the tube. There are a couple of books out with plans for naval trucks.

Rod

 

[Alden]

That's it. I'm going The NPS route -- I'm putting garden-ornament carriage wheels on a poured cement carriage. Then the events can jolly well come to ME!

 

[Poor Private]

The NPS carriages are aluminium. They are so correct in appearance that me and a buddy didn't believe it until we came up to one at Shiloh last year at the 150th commemorative,(we were there for one of the reenactments) and thumped it.

 

[matt denison]

I've made complete caraiges including wheels with iron tires and all hardware handmade because you can't buy it anywhere. It takes weeks and a bunch of tools, knowhow, material. If you get something wrong toss it in the fire and start that piece over again. It is something that you do because you really really want a carraige and a little bit for the fun. If I had to do it for money you can bet I would charge thousands of dollars too.

 

[Odentheviking]

So it is very clear that the costly/hard part in putting a carriage together is the correct, dished, wooden, banded wheels. For full size pieces these wheels can be had at a price.
But what about the smaller scale wheels. I have found correct wheels in a 15" size but that is about 1/4 scale. I have found some close,(12 spoke heavy wagon) wheels at 12" wide but that is about 1/5 scale. I am trying to work on some 1/6th scale guns and have found everything hard to find.
So here is my question....... How many wheel sets would have to be ordered from a maker, in a certain scale, to get them to scale down to that size?