Can You Help Identify This MuzzleLoader?

[dthoma128]

This is a gun that came down to me in the family. My Mom believes that this was my Great Great Grandfather's and that he used it for hunting after the US Civil War (i.e. post 1865). He in turn passed it on to his son, my Mom's father, my Grandfather. I never had a chance to discuss it with him before he passed on, back in the late eighties. The only identification I find on it are the words "LONDON TWIST" on top between the barrels and a collection of proofs, a few on the sides of the barrel and a batch underneath the barrel when it is taken off the stock. I have taken several photos that I hope will help...most all are close ups thinking this would help. If there is anything else you would like to see I can get a photo of it and post. If there is anything else I should inspect and/or describe I would be glad to. I would like to know approximately where and when, and by whom, it was manufactured and what is it's approximate worth? Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

The ELC in an oval are Liege (Belgian) proof marks. The Crown over a V appears to be a London view mark(inspection rather than proofing load). Others here know proof marks much better than I do. The gun looks Belgian to me, and pretty solidly built.

 

[Twice boom]

The images of the proof marks do not appear clear to me. It is thoughas Greenmt said made in Belgium. And I am pretty sure that it was made for the Hardware trade here in the States since it does not have a makers name.

Having said that, the gun appears to be solid and well kept. The back action locks makes me think it was made some time after 1860 .16 bore?

Twice.

 

[JV Puleo]

Medium quality Belgian made export gun. I suspect that the Belgians were not major players in the American market until after the CW... I'd place it around 1860-1870. Muzzle loaders remained available and popular long after breech loaders were adopted. The reference to "London" is meaningless.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Medium quality Belgian made export gun. I suspect that the Belgians were not major players in the American market until after the CW... I'd place it around 1860-1870. Muzzle loaders remained available and popular long after breech loaders were adopted. The reference to "London" is meaningless.

I agree. London Twist was a selling point in this case. Most people wouldn't have known the meaning or differences in the proof marks. Still a nice gun though. Somebody took good care of it.

 

[dthoma128]

Thanks for the feedback everyone...and the compliments. It has been neglected for twenty years unfortunatly...barrel had some rust on outside following some of the "twists" that had to be addressed. Below are a few better close ups of the proof marks. Not sure what was meant by the bore (.16)? Inside diameter of barrel at end is 17.5mm (0.688") if that means anything. Curious to know if anyone could put a ballpark value on it from the pictures alone...for insurance purposes. Inside of tubes look clean. Thanks again.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Assuming that the gun is a Belgium gun made for an American retailer, it does not have much "collector" value. If the bores are in good shape it has some "shooter" value. If the bores are marked 16 gauge and mic at .688 (more like 15 gauge) they have probably lost some metal somehow. That would make the actual wall thickness of the barrels an important consideration.

TOW has several vaguely similar guns marked in the upper hundreds. Personally, I wouldn't sell a family gun for that.

 

[Tumblernotch]

The picture shown at #5 is the Perron used since 1853 as showing inspection or proof of the breech. The EG with a star in the cartouche has been used as the Definitive Proof since 1853 and on muzzleloaders only since 1894. The 17.2 mark is the bore in millimeters and falls between a 16 gauge (16.83mm) and a 14 gauge (17.6mm).

 

[Twice boom]

The N with the crown over it is the inspectors mark.

Twice.

 

[nit wit]

Belgian gunmakers were the first to do knockoffs, they copied high end English guns. The gun is worth 250-300. If I were you I would be using this shotgun. Your ancestors held that gun and took game to feed their family. It was well taken care of. It is way more valuable to ypu than someone else.
Regards
Nit Wit

 

[Twice boom]

Belgium and Liege in particular where China in export guns and Part manufactures of their time.
And do not think all the English guns were free from Belgium parts, or Americas finest . It makes it hard to know which is a good one amongst the much garbage they exported . Thank God they have proofing laws.

The gun in question appears to be well taken care of and if the bores are fairly clean as in free of many deep pits it could bring as much as $650.00 .and like the previous poster said for that kind of money it is worth more as a family heir loom. IMO

Twice.

 

[dthoma128]

Thanks again all for the feedback. This gun will be staying in the family - at least for another generation! While I have had it out of the cabinet my 16 year old son had quite a gleam in his eye when holding it and listening to my story on the feedback you were giving me - it will be his someday!

I am still unclear on the approximate date it was probably manufactured...it seemed the earlier feedback had it closer to just being post US Civil War (i.e. 1865 - 1875) while a later comment indicated much later, i.e. 1890ish. Which do you think is closer to the mark?

Also, am I understanding right that it could be shot, possibly with a light load? Would a competant gunsmith be able to take a look at it and give the okay, or do I specifically need to find one that has muzzleloader experience? Might I be better off taking it to some sort of black powder shooting event and gathering opinions there?

 

[Marc Adamchek]

I would do all three options you suggest. It's a beautiful gun in great shape, the barrels have been proofed and they look good from here, but a gunsmith (or maybe someone you meet at a muzzleloader function as you suggest)might have a barrel thickness gauge. You really need to know the barrel wall thickness about 8 to 12 inches up from the bottom. That's where the most pressure is after firing. Such a gauge is pretty costly but the right gunsmith should have one.

Good Luck, it is a beautiful little double!

 

[Twice boom]

It's hard to say the exact date but logically speaking 1890's would not have been the date since the breech loaders were in full swing by that time . 1860-1870 would be my best guess.

As far as shooting it : Yes a gunsmith that works on ML would be the one more apt to tell you rather than a gunsmith that works on modern guns.
If your intent is just to shoot it , and after you had a competent gunsmith gave you the ok loaded with a very light load and have some fun with it, the experience will be same as loading it heavy enough for hunting. But on the other hand if your intent was to hunt with it, then the gun should be proofed by someone that knows what he is doing . You want to make sure the gun can stand an accidental double charge.

I don’t know where you are from ,but if you can make it to Friendship Indian in June you will meet many, many folks that shoot muzzle loading shot guns and will be more than happy to tell if your gun is safe to shoot .Plus you will be able to pick up loading supplies and tools for it if you dodn’t have any for it.
Enjoy it.
Twice.

 

[dlimoges]

I have a gun with the same markings.As far as shooting one that old ,remember that the quality of the iron was not the best in that era.With a good gun smith and proof testing you should be able to shoot.I think that mine is going to retire.Think of the history behind that old gun.It was hi teck in its day.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

Twice - Believe it or not, there were actually many people who still commissioned muzzleloaders to be built for them instead of breechloaders. This was common well after the breechloader became a common mainstay.

Hell, they were our kindred spirits!

 

[Twice boom]

Twice - Believe it or not, there were actually many people who still commissioned muzzleloaders to be built for them instead of breechloaders. This was common well after the breechloader became a common mainstay.

Hell, they were our kindred spirits!

Yea I thought of that Marc while I was typing. Then I thought ,maybe ,but would they special order and not have the name of the maker on it.? :idunno:
But you are right there were many that held on to their old ML guns..
Twice.

 

[dthoma128]

Friendly Indiana would be about ten hour drive... not too far...have it on my radar and calendar and will try to make the trek and learn some more about this gun and the sport. Thanks again for all the feedback!