Can I improve this?

[Joemolf]

I had the same issue with my 1803 Harper's Ferry. Modern breech plugs are much longer than the originals. Preformed stocks are designed for the shorter breech plugs to get the fence on the lock to line up with end of the barrel. This means that the ideal spot in the pan for the touch hole will be behind the face of the breech plug. I asked several highly respected gun builders what to do. The consensus was to make a dimple in the breech plug where the touch hole hits the threads. The breech plug face needs to be counterbored to the depth of the touch hole and a notch has to be cut to the counter bore. I was concerned about the exposed threads being a path for rust to form in the breech plug. Similar notches are common from paths from the touch hole to the breech face. When the breech plug is well greased, the rusting is not really an issue. What is important is establishing a path from the pan to the powder charge. Most original firearms with the notched breeches have intact threads. With a good path from the pan to the powder charge, ignition is fast.

So, @Joemolf, complete the notch and enjoy the performance you are expecting.

Thank you kindly! All great advice!
Joe

 

[M. De Land]

I have a TOTW rifle that I purchased a couple years back. Problem is rifle suffers from delay and occasional mis fires. I don’t know what took me so long to look down the barrel but I did today the touch hole is drilled into the breach plug. I attached a picture. From what I read previous posts this is common in pre made stocks the barrel and the lock should have been set back further. If Kibler can get his touch holes forward of the breech plug why can’t others? Anyway the damage is done; I want the rifle more reliable. It a shame because it’s a nice barrel Rice.50 Swamp barrel. Anyway I’m going to pull the breech plug and take a closer look. I assume there is a minimum number of threads so grinding the face may not be an option. I guess using a burr I can open and possibly lengthen that notch you can see which I believe is the problem. Yes I’m ****** but I didn’t know any better at the time. So if I can take some of the breeches face off what is minimum insertion depth of the breech plug otherwise I’ll just open the notch. The touch hole can’t be pulled forward it’s presently centered on the pan. Thanks for your help!
View attachment 173577

You need to keep the perimeter height of the plug to seal against the inner thread shoulder of the barrel. I'd extend the fire channel in the plug face to the middle of the plug and then make a shallow dish out to near the perimeter. This would make both much easier to clean out and keep clean .

 

[rich pierce]

I can’t tell what’s going on from the borescope picture. I definitely would unbreech it and see what’s up directly. It could be that the liner is protruding into the bore. If so that has to be fixed. I use a half-round needle file from the breech to do this.

If the breechplug is notched for the liner, you’ll want to shape and polish this so that it’s certain that powder falls straight to the liner level without failure. You’ll want to feel powder crunch when you poke your vent pick in. This gun is going to need picking of the vent.

The other reason for polishing and shaping the notch is so that fouling will not accumulate there. You’ll want the gasses from the firing to scour the path to the vent each time it’s fired. Nothing to trap fouling.

I think I’m not saying anything new, that others are indicating the same.

 

[Joemolf]

I can’t tell what’s going on from the borescope picture. I definitely would unbreech it and see what’s up directly. It could be that the liner is protruding into the bore. If so that has to be fixed. I use a half-round needle file from the breech to do this.

If the breechplug is notched for the liner, you’ll want to shape and polish this so that it’s certain that powder falls straight to the liner level without failure. You’ll want to feel powder crunch when you poke your vent pick in. This gun is going to need picking of the vent.

The other reason for polishing and shaping the notch is so that fouling will not accumulate there. You’ll want the gasses from the firing to scour the path to the vent each time it’s fired. Nothing to trap fouling.

I think I’m not saying anything new, that others are indicating the same.

Thank you for your valuable input! When I picked it previously I could not feel the powder. I gotten several consecutive flash in the pans firing on the fourth prime. I knew something was up.

 

[M. De Land]

I have a TOTW rifle that I purchased a couple years back. Problem is rifle suffers from delay and occasional mis fires. I don’t know what took me so long to look down the barrel but I did today the touch hole is drilled into the breach plug. I attached a picture. From what I read previous posts this is common in pre made stocks the barrel and the lock should have been set back further. If Kibler can get his touch holes forward of the breech plug why can’t others? Anyway the damage is done; I want the rifle more reliable. It a shame because it’s a nice barrel Rice.50 Swamp barrel. Anyway I’m going to pull the breech plug and take a closer look. I assume there is a minimum number of threads so grinding the face may not be an option. I guess using a burr I can open and possibly lengthen that notch you can see which I believe is the problem. Yes I’m ****** but I didn’t know any better at the time. So if I can take some of the breeches face off what is minimum insertion depth of the breech plug otherwise I’ll just open the notch. The touch hole can’t be pulled forward it’s presently centered on the pan. Thanks for your help!
View attachment 173577

 

[Joemolf]

I can’t tell what’s going on from the borescope picture. I definitely would unbreech it and see what’s up directly. It could be that the liner is protruding into the bore. If so that has to be fixed. I use a half-round needle file from the breech to do this.

If the breechplug is notched for the liner, you’ll want to shape and polish this so that it’s certain that powder falls straight to the liner level without failure. You’ll want to feel powder crunch when you poke your vent pick in. This gun is going to need picking of the vent.

The other reason for polishing and shaping the notch is so that fouling will not accumulate there. You’ll want the gasses from the firing to scour the path to the vent each time it’s fired. Nothing to trap fouling.

I think I’m not saying anything new, that others are indicating the same.

You need to keep the perimeter height of the plug to seal against the inner thread shoulder of the barrel. I'd extend the fire channel in the plug face to the middle of the plug and then make a shallow dish out to near the perimeter. This would make both much easier to clean out and keep clean .

Roger and thank you. The notch is pretty inadequate as done . Are you suggesting the face be somewhat concave? I was thinking that earlier and match the scraper to the plug face. Though I have to admit I very seldom have to scrape the plug face except for maybe the Bess after a pouch full of paper cartridges. Appreciate your input!
Thanks
Joe

 

[M. De Land]

My flash hole is a good 3/16s of an inch ahead of the flat breech plug face and it will still load up with crude after about 30 shots and begin to misfire if I don't run a brass scraper down bore and clean it off.
I am able to make my own flash hole liners and another possibility is to make a liner with an angled forward flash channel that would need to be indexed to the threads to get the exit hole ahead of a new flat breech plug face a bit . I have a flint pistol with and angled flash hole that is very reliable but is not lined so the angle would be very limited as to movement forward in the confines of a .250 diameter (.125 radius) minus thread depth liner. It could concievable be angled forward about .080 or so which might get you ahead of a new flat breech face.

 

[DuncNZ]

Thank you for your advice! I had a similar incident with a Pendersoli Charleville though it was not as bad. Being the barrel had no liner and the touch hole was aft of center I pulled the hole in installed a touch hole liner. It worked out perfectly unfortunately I don’t have the room to play with on this rifle. I’m sitting here thinking I’ll probably make a concave notch in the face of the plug and shape the face cleaner to match or just put a cleaner notch in it. this is always going to bother me. Unless it works out well mostly no more delay.

Me too , I pulled the breach plug found a groove the size of half of the flash hole, going half way across the breach face .I removed the plug and made a long shallow V notch across the whole face ,then fitted a White lightening flash hole liner , re hardened the frizzen and had no more ignition problems with my Charleville . I've never had a problem with either breach face fouling or cleaning on this Musket

 

[M. De Land]

My flash hole is a good 3/16s of an inch ahead of the flat breech plug face and it will still load up with crude after about 30 shots and begin to misfire if I don't run a brass scraper down bore and clean it off.
I am able to make my own flash hole liners and another possibility is to make a liner with an angled forward flash channel that would need to be indexed to the threads to get the exit hole ahead of a new flat breech plug face a bit . I have a flint pistol with and angled flash hole that is very reliable but is not lined so the angle would be very limited as to movement forward in the confines of a .250 diameter (.125 radius) minus thread depth liner. It could concievable be angled forward about .080 or so which might get you ahead of a new flat breech face.

Another thing I might suggest you consider if your gong to install a new flat faced breech plug is to ream the rifling lands out a bit ahead of the plug face to make a smooth bore section that will clean out much easier where the plug face fits against the inner thread shoulder. The other thing I did on mine was to make the inner face of the flash hole liner the same radius as the interior of the barrel for a flush fit with no corners for crude build up with liner protrusion plus or minus. It does require indexing but I feel is worth the effort.

 

[M. De Land]

My flash hole is a good 3/16s of an inch ahead of the flat breech plug face and it will still load up with crude after about 30 shots and begin to misfire if I don't run a brass scraper down bore and clean it off.
I am able to make my own flash hole liners and another possibility is to make a liner with an angled forward flash channel that would need to be indexed to the threads to get the exit hole ahead of a new flat breech plug face a bit . I have a flint pistol with and angled flash hole that is very reliable but is not lined so the angle would be very limited as to movement forward in the confines of a .250 diameter (.125 radius) minus thread depth liner. It could concievable be angled forward about .080 or so which might get you ahead of a new flat breech face.

I should mention that I was trying out a new method of fouling control by dry brushing between shots as opposed to a spit patch mop out every ten shots and very likely was the real cause of the crud/fouling build up on the breech face after only 30 shots.

 

[Art Caputo]

A few years ago I had replaced my old liner with a larger White lightning. After drilling/tapping for the replacement, the breach plug which was originally at the very base of the original liner was interfering, not allowing me to fully tap the new(larger) hole. After some careful work with my Dremel and a small ball grinder through the the newly drilled port, I was able to form a smooth, contoured opening in the beach block that resulted in fast and reliable ignition. No fowling issues. In your case it may be possible that you could open breach area up using the same approach.

 

[Billy Boy]

Thanks!
Funny I searched the forum for breech plug depth and no luck. So I searched the web and found a forum post on the very subject. Seems there may be room to take the face of the breach down according so some members. I’m thinking I may call rice barrel and ask them. It’s there barre and breech plug I gather from TOTW barrel that goes with the kit.

Seems to me that around a half an inch journal - thread length is common these days. Do the measurements and find out, you can probably face it off a thread or two and not compromise the strength of the breech, proof it
(many threads here, no pun intended) three times and carry on.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The concern I have with facing off a couple of threads is that a gap is then formed between the end of the breech plug and the base of the thread journal in the barrel. This gap does allow for fouling to build up and provides much more surface for rust to form than a notch from the touch hole to the center of the breech plug.

If the threads in the breech plug are shortened, then the barrel should be also faced off so the breech plug face seals off the threads in the barrel. Unfortunately, with a swamped or tapered barrel already inlet into the stock, the fit between the barrel and the stock become too loose, not to mention the change in location for the underlugs.

 

[bang]

What G1758 said.

 

[smo]

It’s really hard too “clock” a plug back into position once material has been removed from both the plug and the barrel …..

Don’t ask me how I know….

 

[Buckskinquin]

I have had times when shooting this rifle besides the delay I’d get two even three consecutive flash in the pans. Sitting there picking the flash hole after each wondering how I forgot to put powder down the barrel with no one around bothering me! Lol then finally bang. I hate having to pull a ball. So that notch was poorly groomed.

Once the notching is complete and you start shooting again, I’ve found placing my flash hole pick in the flash hole while loading. Leave place until powder charge and PRB are seated. Once flash pan is charged, tap powder towards flash hole. Some should trickle into the void created by the pick while loading. Using this method has practically eliminated misfires. Flintlocks all have personalities, mine seems to like this loading sequence.

 

[sturmkatze]

What did Rice say?

 

[Kansas Kid]

Remove touch hole liner. Counter bore plug face or radius if you want, but make a scraper to fit. Dry fit liner and contour to bore ID and file or ream about 1/16 in of the lands at breech face to bore dia. Remove liner/ install plug then liner. Problem solved without moving anything or compromising plug to barrel seal anymore than the last guy done.

 

[M. De Land]

Remove touch hole liner. Counter bore plug face or radius if you want, but make a scraper to fit. Dry fit liner and contour to bore ID and file or ream about 1/16 in of the lands at breech face to bore dia. Remove liner/ install plug then liner. Problem solved without moving anything or compromising plug to barrel seal anymore than the last guy done.

Ideally one wants the plug thread seal against inner barrel thread shoulder with no interruption around the circumference as fouling will work down the threads in the cut out over time but when one already has this dynamic then the only option is to mitagate the problem as practically as possible. The set up picture is about as good of a compromise as I can think of. Perhaps some red thread locker would keep the V threads sealed from fouling penetration but one needs 500 degrees F to break the red loctite for removal which will not hurt barrel steel heat treatment.

 

[Kansas Kid]

I use gasoila pipe thread sealant on all my plugs and liners. It’s good stuff and never washes out. I use red lock tight on left hand percussion drum threads with good results.

I always use the semi permanent chambers white lightning liners.