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Can anyone help me identify this. Dutch pirate pistol in early to mid 1600s?

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keegah

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Can anyone help me identify this. It was found in an oilcloth at Ft Pierce FL. It is purported to be a Dutch Sea Service pistol and taken off of a Dutch pirate ship in ca 1620-1650. Many thanks, Dennis The pistol is 19 1/2" long and the barrel is 12 1/2"
 

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It actually has a very North African look to it. Definitely not 1650 or earlier, no matter where it is from. It has the APPEARANCE of something from the early 18th century, however, if it is North African (or perhaps middle eastern), then it is likely much later than that.
 
It actually has a very North African look to it. Definitely not 1650 or earlier, no matter where it is from. It has the APPEARANCE of something from the early 18th century, however, if it is North African (or perhaps middle eastern), then it is likely much later than that.
It was found in an oilcloth in a midden. The tribe was extinct by 1730
 
BTW i am a complete newbie to this. Just found out that the "striker plate" is the Frizzen. Please forgive my ignorance. The trigger style is North African?
 
The style of the whole gun is North African or Ottoman, in my opinion (I'm thinking now more Ottoman than North African, but either way). They would copy European styles... but didn't quite get it right. The barrel bands are pretty common to Moroccan and Turkish pistols.
 
Hi,
What we can say for certain, is the lock and hardware were not made prior to the end of the 17th century or beginning of the 18th. It appears the pan has a bridle (extension) that supports the screw for the frizzen (also called steel, hammer, or battery). That suggests an 18th century date but is not for certain. I suggest that the side plate, lock, and trigger guard, and possibly the butt cap could be Dutch in origin but that does not mean the gun was Dutch made. They traded gun parts all over the world and especially the north Africa and the Mediterranean. I think a Mediterranean origin for the pistol is plausible. Could it be from a pirate ship? Possibly, but there are many different and equally plausible origins. It may have been a trade item or from a merchant ship that sunk.

dave
 
Where it was found was near a shallow inlet that Dutch pirate ships used to raid Spanish ships from. It was buried in a midden in an oilcloth. The reason for the oral history of the dating was due to the fact that 3 Dutch pirate shallops were boarded and burned to the waterline ca 1654. The local tribe, the Ais, were for the most part extinct by 1730. Dutch piracy mostly ended by the 1760s though an English pirate, named Jennings would run out from what is now called Jennings Cove to raid Spanish ships up until 1720.
 
I hope the OP doesn't mind but I shortened the title for this thread. It reminded me of the book titles in 100+ year old books that not only give the name of the book but give a brief explanation of what it is all about as well.

Based on the pictures in the book "Pistols of the World", by Claude Blair, the pistol may be Dutch and from a 1670 to 1720 time period. (fig 167-172)
 
Zonie thank you. Is there anywhere on the internet to biew that citation? Many thanks, Dennis
 
Hi Keegah

As mentioned above, I am confident this gun is what is commonly referred to in collectors circles as an Ottoman Kubur (horse) pistol. These pistols were in use for over 100 years throughout much of the Ottoman Empire. Even up to the 1880's. Most were likely made using imported European barrels and locks, and then assembled and often decorated to local tastes at one of the many gun making centers in the Balkans. Often under contract with the Empire itself. Unless made as a pair, I've never seen any two exactly alike. The styling characteristics of these pistols are all over the place. The stock hardware could come from many different European locals, and copy time periods anywhere from about 1700 through 1820's. So you could have a pistol made in 1850 with styling cues from 1750. You can find a pistol with an Italian barrel, a German style lock, and French hardware, styled from different time periods, all on one pistol. These pistols show up anywhere from plain, to highly decorated. It would just depend on the customers taste and budget I suppose. Usually, these pistols are unmarked so they can't be traced back to any one gun shop as they were sold to both friend and foe alike. The decoration and carving were done in a generic fashion to appeal to a broad range of prospective customers, and not offend any religious sensibilities. Occasionally you will find one with spurious European markings in an attempt to fool the customer to increase the perceived value. Then, you will find one with an authentic stamp on the lock or barrel. But it's in Ottoman/Turkish or other and unreadable or untraceable in any event since the Ottomans kept very few written records of their gun making history during this period.
The pistol in the OP is typical of these pistols made during their peek period of use during the first half of the 19th Century. It is difficult to imagine the popularity and longevity of these pistols in the Region for 100+years. It's the likely reason there are so many original specimens still available today. They are all over Europe, Middle East, and North America. There is hardly an antique gun auction that doesn't have one or more on offer. It is often difficult or impossible to accurately date these pistols due to there long term usage and variety of cultural influences. So it's easy to see how these pistols are often mis-labeled as something from the European Mediterranean coast. Although on a rare occasion you will find a pistol that was all European made, but decorated/styled for Ottoman taste, and exported for resale to the Region. These tend to bring a higher price at auction if so identified.
One thing I've noticed with these Ottoman styled pistols is their trigger guards are almost always nailed to the stocks versus set by screws. And there is no accomodation for a full length ramrod.

Rick
 
Zonie thank you. Is there anywhere on the internet to biew that citation? Many thanks, Dennis
I don't know of any place on the internet that shows all of the pages of the book. The book has long been out of print but copies of it are available from several different book stores on the web.
Although it is a nice book with hundreds of pictures in it, I wouldn't pay a lot of money for it. In fact, I got my hardcovered copy for only a few dollars in a local book store's Bargain Ben.
 
Dennis,
I'll toss my two cents worth into this. If I were you I would work the provenance of the pistol, not the pistol itself. Midden Heaps in fixed Indian villages are Archeological sites so there should be more documents, short of being stolen out of the midden by a thief of time using a back hoe. Archeology is done in layers, layers are documented, things can be dated by the material found around them. These are from such and such a time and so on. You say it was wrapped in oil cloth. textiles can be dated both by radio carbon dating and by more modern form of dating. Yes, this is expensive and probably out of the purview of anyone not rich or associated with a university. But a lot can be told about cloth by weave and by what it is woven out of and how the thread was prepared. The kind of "oil" used in making the cloth is also indicative of it's age and time. The question of why it was in the midden heap also comes into play, initial thought it was hidden there. Why? Did the tribe have European captives? Did they keep slaves? Did they have a hierarchy? Could it have been hidden there at a time after the tribe was gone for some reason, Anachronistic items in middens are an indication of this. No one of these items can date the pistol, but can narrow it down a whole lot.And then there is the big one: What, or most probably Who, rubbed the tribe out and why?

Firearms were valuable and therefore hung on to. If they needed repair, they were repaired without regard to keeping it original. I have a rifle that has been in my family since the revolution. It has no real value, other than sentimental, as it has been repaired and updated a lot since then. It is now percussion, I have no idea when the last lock on it was made, have no idea if the barrel and stock are original, or if the hardware was some how modified. What I really have is a frankengun that kept a branch of my family fed from the colonial times trough the great depression. So your pistol may have indeed been in the hands of a dutch corsair, and many to most of the above comments may apply. Like the others I don't think it is as early as 1650. In looking at the added on engraving on the frizzen, it looks vaguely Coptic--a collection of Christian cultures found in Africa, Syria, Armenia. The one on the left, which you drew as a asterisk looks like the loop continues to from a Coptic Chi-Rho
1594587965497.png

Another Version looks like an Asterisk

1594588404203.png


Looking at the photos I blew up and massaged a bit, it looks like it has a full ramrod in pipes along its underside. The best I could do makes it seem to be rather narrow, is it brass? I know nothing about what that could mean, maybe someone here does.

While I know I've given you no answers, Hopefully I've given you other places to look. 73.
 
These Ottoman style pistols, in most cases, have what collectors call a false ramrod. They are seen in two different forms. In one case, they are simply a molding of sorts, carved into the stock to give the impression of a ramrod. In the other case, it is simply a short piece of wood/iron to make this impression.
The Ottomans preferred to load their pistols with a separate rod called a Suma. It was suspended around the neck with a leather throng or chain, and tucked in the sash.
It is still a mystery why they bothered with the false ramrod styling exercise.

Rick
001 (Medium).JPG
 
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