Bullet Mould Idea

[nkbj]

NKBJ, that mould is SLICK! I like it, how do they shoot? Those Remington 36s will hold some large charges, I'm thinking you have some room to play with

Yo Pete.
They shoot as good as I do on any given day. Every piece likes a different load so adjustable length seemed the way to go.

 

[nkbj]

If you get grease behind the bullet with a prelubed bore, then it is fine also. Leading shouldn't be a problem with as shallow as the rifling is on these pistols and the velocities we are shooting at. I think the grease groove is more of a cartridge fix for when it is more difficult to get grease behind the bullet. My first step is to bore my cylinders out to .001" over groove diameter. I found mine to be .446" and I slugged the barrels on my piettas at just about .450".

I'd like to try out modifying a .44 Pietta to have .451" diameter in the upper chamber where the bullet is seated and a taper further in transitioning into the original .446". Haven't done it yet, still threatening to do it for use with .450" sized bullets. Location of the taper would be the tricky part.
Typically I size bullets to have a smaller base and leave the front band to shear on the chamber mouth but uneven chambers from the factory sure can make you want to say bad words.

 

[dylan84]

A live pilot throating reamer would work well. I have a fixed pilot for a 45-70 that I am about to grind the pilot part down for this exact application! I thought about reaming it all the way down on this NMA, but it gets thin where the bolt indexes into the cylinder. The more I mess with my pair of Piettas the more I just want to start making new pistol from scratch! I got the barrel off my NMA right now to make some kind of better forcing cone to help out with it's lack of alignment.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

The old Tranter and I believe the Adams have a tapered bore in the mouth of the cylinder.
I think the same is what you hope to achieve Dylan?
Forgive me if I missed it in this thread, but the original Adams/Tranter moulds cast a ball with a spigot or peg on them that goes through a felt or leather washer. it is then riveted into place and stays with the ball in flight.,
These balls are slightly smaller diameter than normal, and a thumb press into the cylinder.
A mate in Oz has been shooting these, and found that although he is not a great pistol shot, he could achieve a three inch group at 25 metres with his original Adams , (well worn!) off -hand.
I do not think I am allowed to link to another forum, but if anyone interested, PM me and I can send you the link privately.

Edited to correct the range! I had written 50 yards and it was 25 metres, or roughly 27 1/2 yards!!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

I cant help but think how much the subject of this thread is like the original Tranter/Adams moulds!

 

[Red Owl]

Well we have several things going on here so... On the base of the bullet. I think it ought to be flat. I think there is a feeling a flat base is most accurate. The Minnie Bullets with the hollow base- that was so they could load easy in a musket and the idea was the walls of the base would expand for a good gas seal. On a revolver with a cylinder gap- I'm not sure one way or the other if a hollow base would be beneficial. The purpose of a thin wad- if one was used, I figured to push any fouling out the barrel. One of Sam Colt's original patents had a conical bullet with a very thin cork wad but the design was dropped so maybe a wad isn't needed or useful. On bullet design, the ramrod has a way to twist the point of the bullet out of line. A wide band on the bullet ought to help, so a bullet that mostly tapers to the base, with a narrow band just at the base, that would be more likely to twist out of line.
I have shot both out of a Colt Navy, The conical bullets are in a combustible case and I shoot 100 at a session but I've never noticed lead fouling. The round balls I use a lubed wad and again never notice fouling. I never fill the chamber ends with grease/Crisco. I think we might be over worried on lead fouling.
We also have the issue of the forcing cone. On a modern revolver some guys re-cut the degree to a more gentle slop and claim it improves accuracy. I have no idea if the same thing would help with a percussion. If you are using round balls I think they would tend to allign themselves, not like a semi-wadcutter on a modern revolver.

 

[dylan84]

Well we have several things going on here so... On the base of the bullet. I think it ought to be flat. I think there is a feeling a flat base is most accurate. The Minnie Bullets with the hollow base- that was so they could load easy in a musket and the idea was the walls of the base would expand for a good gas seal. On a revolver with a cylinder gap- I'm not sure one way or the other if a hollow base would be beneficial. The purpose of a thin wad- if one was used, I figured to push any fouling out the barrel. One of Sam Colt's original patents had a conical bullet with a very thin cork wad but the design was dropped so maybe a wad isn't needed or useful. On bullet design, the ramrod has a way to twist the point of the bullet out of line. A wide band on the bullet ought to help, so a bullet that mostly tapers to the base, with a narrow band just at the base, that would be more likely to twist out of line.
I have shot both out of a Colt Navy, The conical bullets are in a combustible case and I shoot 100 at a session but I've never noticed lead fouling. The round balls I use a lubed wad and again never notice fouling. I never fill the chamber ends with grease/Crisco. I think we might be over worried on lead fouling.
We also have the issue of the forcing cone. On a modern revolver some guys re-cut the degree to a more gentle slop and claim it improves accuracy. I have no idea if the same thing would help with a percussion. If you are using round balls I think they would tend to allign themselves, not like a semi-wadcutter on a modern revolver.

You have shot 100 with no lube of any kind on the bullet in your cartridges? The problem I have seen is powder fouling not necessarily lead fouling.

 

[nkbj]

As with reloading for modern arms any bullet choice for percussion revolvers will have pro's and con's to be balanced off to suit what you want to tailor the load to do. These were penetration tests in water logged paper conducted with a Pietta 1858 reworked to use .41 caliber molds. With the same powder charge the nose shape of the bullets made a huge difference.

Here's some test results with an 1858 .44 using a SWC versus round ball. The penetration results are basically the same due to the higher muzzle velocity of the light weight ball. The two on the right should both say 35 grains. Lyman #452066 is a neat design to use because of a generous bevel on the hind end that assists in loading.

 

[dylan84]

As with reloading for modern arms any bullet choice for percussion revolvers will have pro's and con's to be balanced off to suit what you want to tailor the load to do. These were penetration tests in water logged paper conducted with a Pietta 1858 reworked to use .41 caliber molds. With the same powder charge the nose shape of the bullets made a huge difference.
View attachment 181569

Here's some test results with an 1858 .44 using a SWC versus round ball. The penetration results are basically the same due to the higher muzzle velocity of the light weight ball. The two on the right should both say 35 grains. Lyman #452066 is a neat design to use because of a generous bevel on the hind end that assists in loading.
View attachment 181571

Great info thanks! Did you take a 36 caliber cylinder and line bore it to the frame and then rebarrel it? That would be a pretty awesome way to get the alignment finally right on these revolvers. I was thinking of staying 44 and doing this. Even with fitting the bolt properly mine does not index in alignment with the bore! Wasn't sure if this was common with the Pietta 1858 NMA.

 

[nkbj]

Great info thanks! Did you take a 36 caliber cylinder and line bore it to the frame and then rebarrel it? That would be a pretty awesome way to get the alignment finally right on these revolvers. I was thinking of staying 44 and doing this. Even with fitting the bolt properly mine does not index in alignment with the bore! Wasn't sure if this was common with the Pietta 1858 NMA.

Yes sir, started out as a 1858 .36. A real gunsmith (not me) did the barrel and chambers work.
He also did a fine job on a 1851 to make it a .40 caliber like Colt did the prototype testing on.
If the Civil War hadn't skewed the market place I think Colt's slim .40's would have been the cat's meow.

 

[dylan84]

Now you really have my wheels turning! I was considering machining a threaded barrel set up for Colt revolvers. I am getting a Pietta "Navy" 44 from my brother in law cheap and plan to do some serious R&D with that rascal! I have always liked the 40ish caliber cartridges.

You know if Sam Colt lived longer he would have tried all sorts of stuff and the open top wouldn't be dead. It is not near as weak (structurally) of a design as people are misled to think it is. As you pointed out he was already up to some neat stuff!

 

[Pete453]

Dylan,
I ran across this old thread, I'm just wondering what you've come up with, where you're at with your bullet mould ideas.

 

[nit wit]

Another thing is if I get it to work it will be cheap. Take a Lee 2 cavity mould that has enough meat left to carve this profile into it and hit the green button. It of course might not work as planned but worth the effort. I have wasted time on worse ideas!

I think it is a great personal project! When your done, you can say I did that. I wish I was smart enough to do that!
Nit Wit

 

[dylan84]

Dylan,
I ran across this old thread, I'm just wondering what you've come up with, where you're at with your bullet mould ideas.

I have not got back to this exact mould idea but I have customized some smokeless moulds with success. Getting a feel for what I can get away with and the dimensional tolerance that I can hold. My direction now is to just make a complete mould as the Lee blocks are hard to hold rigidly and hard to align. I had to get creative by grinding some flats on some pins.

 

[Pete453]

all in good time