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Brown Bess

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eelclam

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I came across a curiosity at my friends last night, he produced from his gun closet what looks like an original Brown Bess. The curious thing is that the lock has the normal crown stamps but is also marked EDGE 1707. The was past down in his family for five generations he knows of. Since that would be very early does anyone have any info on those markings.


Bob
 
About 1728 the English stopped putting dates on the Brown Bess locks. They had a habit of contracting for locks and various parts when things were slow and then grabbing various parts out of bins to make guns up when things got interesting. There was a problem with troops getting new made guns with locks that were 30 or 40 years out of date. The date on the lock is probably accurate, when the gun was built is something else. It's probably authentic.

Many Klatch
 
I believe I have read that " Edge" is an original stamping. I also remember E Cooke was an original stamping....did you feel faint when you saw the arm? Bet it caught you be Surprise!
 
Doc Rogers said:
Pictures...We need pictures!!!

Drool, drool.

:grin: Doc

Yeah, lots of detailed pictures, including inside and outside of the lock, including one of the closed frizzen. I love those big bess locks and there are too few originals to study. :bow: :bow:
 
Thank you guys. I did see Richard Edge and Sons ordinance lock contract 1760-1775 with a 1756 contract date. Was that type of was the Brown Bess type lock commonly in use in 1707? I have to have him take some pictures and I will post them as soon as I get them. I didn't get week but you could feel the history in the gun.

Bob
 
eelspike said:
I came across a curiosity at my friends last night, he produced from his gun closet what looks like an original Brown Bess. The curious thing is that the lock has the normal crown stamps but is also marked EDGE 1707. The was past down in his family for five generations he knows of. Since that would be very early does anyone have any info on those markings.


Bob

An early date like this would put it in the reign of Queen Anne, pre-dating what was known as the "Brown Bess" muskets.
Going to have to wait for the photos. :grin:
 
Many Klatch, is correct. The lock maybe from the date it says, but the gun maybe from a later date by far.

If this hasn't been cut down it would be very long, a 1st model long land pattern. It 'might' still have a wooden rammer if it hasn't been altered.. There might be other tell tale signs to prove a closer to date of being built as a whole gun, but that is harder to tell than counting chickens before they are hatched.

Sometimes there are 'papers' under the butt stock plate. The hard part is that plate probably isn't screwed on, an is nailed and or pinned.

It takes a real specialist to remove that plate correctly as things tend to be come fragile over the years.
 
I looked at the date with a magnifying and 1707 it still my best impression approximately 62" inches over all. There are no sights front or rear. The Stock has been spliced (repaired) carefully with the newer piece starting just forward of where the ram rod is enclosed in wood so just ahead of where it tapers. The ram rod is steel flaired at the tip and flat on the tip.

My link for lock makers is Link

The stock resembles this quite closely Link

which I looked up when Queen Anne was mentioned by powder burner, except that the patina is quite dark my impression is that it would have been used as a fowler by his ancestors.

Bob
 
Many Klatch, I don't know if it is correct or not, but according to George Neumann's article in the April 2001 issue of American Rifleman, they stopped putting dates on the lockplates in 1764.
 
So far as I know steel ram rods first came with the 2nd model, but who is to say if that one is the original. The furniture holding it might indicate this, if the the ferruls appear to be a bit too big. The wooden rods were bigger in diameter.

The thing with these guns is that they were supposed to be all the same, but they were not always.

One indication of it being 'Real' might be tring to see what the screws look like, as each screw was usually not the same, and certainly not like screws of today. But as time goes on who knows who may have needed to make new screws.

The screws I an speaking of are the ones that hold the lock on, and not any wood screws.
 
Actually steel ramrods were in use on Long Land aka First Model Besses as well. I'll have to check my books for dates but they were being fitted with either new pipes or sleeving existing pipes to use a steel rammer.
 
From memory, the first use of iron rammers was for the Irish establishment in the 1750's. These Irish besses did not see use in the American Colonies.
 
fallaloosa, That may be, but I have never seen one that didn't have a wooden rod that had been seen by myself, and more importantly others who know better than me. Still thought of as original.

Most any 1st long land patterns, appear to have suffered the ravages of time, and so have been altered.

Many of these alterations, are hard to determine when they occured, and more so when the parts are like ram rods, that break, get lost, or just end up missing.

This appears to get more complicated if you ask me, when what books say are one thing, and what the weapons involved say another.

When a soldier could be punished both in terms of pay, and in phyisical punishment for the loss and breakage of his weapon, well things happen to conceal that fact, and parts would be changed in the concealing of that fact.

A steel ram rod has more uses than a wooden rod has too.

It must be recalled that at the time the idea of a Kings Army was just coming to be, and before wealthy Lords would supply his own Regiment, pretty much as he saw fit.

Before the F&I War event, items like tents were rare for troops. Weapons were expensive, men were not.

Wealthy gentilmen still supplied troops well into the Rev War. With all these overlaps in time, and in weapons that were built of stored parts, not yet guns, it gets very hard to say that on such and such day, in such and such year, ALL of this type weapon had this particular part.

This becomes even more compounded, when certain weapons were supposed to be designed for certain kinds of troops, and certain actions world wide.

I certainly can't write one thing in stone, and say it is completely true.

I understand there were different parts, and if you say take just locks over time, there are a lot of lock makers, we don't even know about yet.

Others we do, and it turns out a unknown father taught a known son. We know there was a standard pattern by the Crown, but that tends to vary as well. Rightly so when this work was done by the hand of man and so can't be duplicted to perfection.
 
J.D. said:
From memory, the first use of iron rammers was for the Irish establishment in the 1750's. These Irish besses did not see use in the American Colonies.

Correction, According to Darling's "Red Coat and Brown Bess," page 21, Iron rammers can be dated to 1724. The first general issue of LLP King's Musket equipped with iron rammers was for the Irish Establishment in 1726. Again, these would not have found their way to the New World.

Darling also reports that iron rammers became standard on all LLP muskets manufactured in the 1750s and later. The trumpet-mouthed upper thimble/guide became universal at the same time.
 
I got the pictures, I was wrong about the front sight it does have one. I'm afraid the date on the lock does not come up that well it is in the style of the time 1707 with the zero being smaller and dressed in line with the top. The forestock has been spliced, perhaps a newer forestock with later hardware would explain the iron rod.

Bob
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:hmm: The lock is too straight to have been manufactured as early as 1707. It is more likely 1767 or 1757, my vote is for 1757 since the list shows that Edge was working in 1757 and 1758 and was working with his son from 1760 - 1775. Hard to tell by the pictures but the lockplate doesn't have the early curved bottom made early in the 18th Century, the bottom edge is much too straight to have been made in 1707. What is the length of the barrel? Thanks for showing us the pictures, that is a marvelous gun - a great piece of history and one to be proud of!
 

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