Brown Bess-like short Land pattern, lockplate marked '1756 Edge', but in 65-cal?

[Flint62Smoothie]

So we'll start off admitting this appears to be an Indian import of 'something' like a Bess, but what would that something be? I saw it today in my local toy store.

The barrel is 37" and the bore is a straight 65-caliber, not the 75-caliber typical of the Bess family. Online the only evidence that I can find for lockplates marked '1756 Edge' are from 1st model Land patters of the 1756 models, but they were 75-bore and longer barrels.

I will say ... being shorter in length and smaller in bore size … it is soooooooo much more handier than any Bess ever thought to be, lol! Any ideas?

 

[Flint Striker]

Officer’s fusil or artillery carbine maybe?

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Officer’s fusil or artillery carbine maybe?

Hmmm … it may just be a British Officer’s fusil! I found this citation, where the barrel length & bore pretty much match (the shop measured the bore, not me):

 

[2 shots]

agree with all above.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Found it! Thanks to Flint Striker for prompting me for words to better search on. Looks like Loyalist Arms sells them new for $697.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
At best it tries to be a pattern 1756 artillery carbine fitted with a steel rammer. The front pipe is wrong but the rest is sort of correct. It is no officer's fusil regardless of what the write up says. It also is no light infantry fusil. The light infantry carbine had a 42" barrel and completely different hardware. Here is what they looked like.

dave

 

[Flint Striker]

Hi,
At best it tries to be a pattern 1756 artillery carbine fitted with a steel rammer. The front pipe is wrong but the rest is sort of correct. It is no officer's fusil regardless of what the write up says. It also is no light infantry fusil. The light infantry carbine had a 42" barrel and completely different hardware. Here is what they looked like.

dave

That’s GORGEOUS!

Something like that or an officer’s fusil is on my wishlist. I don’t reenact, but I do like this style of 1750’s English gun.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Flint Striker,
I love mid-18th century British guns, sporting and military and I cringe when I see what some commercial retailers and even contemporary makers who need to be better informed try to pass off as British. For your visual entertainment here are some contemporary and original British guns. Compare the India-made, Pedersoli, and Miroku stuff with this. Hopefully, you can see the differences.

dave

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

... I cringe when I see what some commercial retailers and even contemporary makers who need to be better informed try to pass off as British. For your visual entertainment here are some contemporary and original British guns.

I certainly understand that! I have no interest in what I posted ... was just trying to help out the shop owner.

 

[Flint Striker]

For reenactment where the piece is going to be banged around or where a really authentic gun prices too many people out, I see the value of guns made in India. But for authenticity… there’s lots of failure. And the sad thing is there doesn’t have to be.

But I suppose even a bad day arguing about muzzleloaders beats a good day of work!

 

[wganz]

Hi,
At best it tries to be a pattern 1756 artillery carbine fitted with a steel rammer. The front pipe is wrong but the rest is sort of correct. It is no officer's fusil regardless of what the write up says. It also is no light infantry fusil. The light infantry carbine had a 42" barrel and completely different hardware. Here is what they looked like.

Just trying to clarify, is this what you're saying is wrong or is there something else?

Went looking for an 1756 Arty carbine and this was the best pix of the front end I could find: auction where pix was found

VS.

Detail from Loyalist Arms:

 

[Flint Striker]

Just trying to clarify, is this what you're saying is wrong or is there something else?

Went looking for an 1756 Arty carbine and this was the best pix of the front end I could find: auction where pix was found

View attachment 198996

VS.

Detail from Loyalist Arms:
View attachment 198998

That’s an officer’s fusil though. It’s not cut back for a bayonet and has a wooden ramrod.

 

[dave_person]

Hi wganz,
The gun you showed from the Morphy auction purports to be an artillery officer's fusil. It originally had a longer barrel that was cut back to sporterize it. It has also been extensively refinished. The officer's carbine was fitted for a bayonet. Officer's fusils were either purchased in bulk from private gun makers or purchased singly by the officer. They were not issued by the government so they had no defined style other than they usually were of musket or carbine bore and fitted with sling swivels and bayonets. The Royal artillery was the only British ordnance entity that created and issued an officer's fusil and very few were made. Bailey writes that none have been identified so the Morphy gun would be the first if it really is what they say. The pattern 1756 artillery carbine issued by the British had an unusual double ribbed trumpet shaped front pipe. It was originally fitted with a wooden ramrod. Many were later altered to take steel rods. The 1776 pattern was fitted with a steel rod and had a standard long trumpet shaped forward pipe. You asked if there were other things wrong with the Loyalist Arms artillery carbine. Below are photos of the artillery and light infantry carbines sold by Loyalist Arms and another retailer.

I don't have an artillery carbine in my possession at the moment but I built an authentic copy of a light infantry fusil. The differences between it and the Loyalist Arms version of the same gun are night and day and those differences in quality of components, inletting, and authentic design and finishing are the same with respect to the original artillery carbine versus the India-made version.

dave

 

[Robby]

I'm still not getting you photographs Dave, just a large empty space. my curiosity has piqued!
Robby

 

[springfield art]

So we'll start off admitting this appears to be an Indian import of 'something' like a Bess, but what would that something be? I saw it today in my local toy store.

The barrel is 37" and the bore is a straight 65-caliber, not the 75-caliber typical of the Bess family. Online the only evidence that I can find for lockplates marked '1756 Edge' are from 1st model Land patters of the 1756 models, but they were 75-bore and longer barrels.

I will say ... being shorter in length and smaller in bore size … it is soooooooo much more handier than any Bess ever thought to be, lol! Any ideas?

View attachment 198898View attachment 198899View attachment 198900

 

[springfield art]

Definitely India-made. Kinda cool. Wish the India factories would join up and step up their quality overall.

Hi wganz,
The gun you showed from the Morphy auction purports to be an artillery officer's fusil. It originally had a longer barrel that was cut back to sporterize it. It has also been extensively refinished. The officer's carbine was fitted for a bayonet. Officer's fusils were either purchased in bulk from private gun makers or purchased singly by the officer. They were not issued by the government so they had no defined style other than they usually were of musket or carbine bore and fitted with sling swivels and bayonets. The Royal artillery was the only British ordnance entity that created and issued an officer's fusil and very few were made. Bailey writes that none have been identified so the Morphy gun would be the first if it really is what they say. The pattern 1756 artillery carbine issued by the British had an unusual double ribbed trumpet shaped front pipe. It was originally fitted with a wooden ramrod. Many were later altered to take steel rods. The 1776 pattern was fitted with a steel rod and had a standard long trumpet shaped forward pipe. You asked if there were other things wrong with the Loyalist Arms artillery carbine. Below are photos of the artillery and light infantry carbines sold by Loyalist Arms and another retailer.

I don't have an artillery carbine in my possession at the moment but I built an authentic copy of a light infantry fusil. The differences between it and the Loyalist Arms version of the same gun are night and day and those differences in quality of components, inletting, and authentic design and finishing are the same with respect to the original artillery carbine versus the India-made version.

dave

Super quality photos and musket! Sweet! Masterpiece!

 

[dave_person]

I'm still not getting you photographs Dave, just a large empty space. my curiosity has piqued!
Robby

Hi Robby,
I don't know what to tell you. Those last photos were posted using Imgur so a different hosting site than before and you still have trouble. I haven't heard from anyone else having trouble. Robby, I am going to post a single photo. See if you can view it.

dave

 

[Kansas Jake]

I can view the photos fine on an iPhone.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Dave - you always post most beautiful firelocks!

 

[Robby]

Dave, If there is a photo in your last posting I don't see it, just a space between the context and your signature.
Robby