Brown Bess? Is this what I think it is?

[Loyalist Dave]

Personally I think this detail is overdrawn for its significance, not many known the history of the Brown Bess in such finite details, other than enthusiasts But I’ve known people who will pay up to $200 to have the lockplate welded over and reengraved For 150-300$.

My personal Bess is marked "Grice 1757"... ☺

Don't worry..., I bought it that way at an auction, and found to my delight after purchase, the change had been made by some previous owner..., the sideplate is also rounded.

LD

 

[Artificer]

Good morning from London. I have been studying this lock plate and bugger me it does look genuine but the brass the other side does not. I sincerely do hope I am wrong and this piece is genuine I make up guns out of bits, like others, so who knows what people will think in a few hundred years. Great fun I wish you well On eBay uk. 1810 genuine locks occasionally come up at around £240 You never see barrels though

Hi Gordon,

I very much believe the brass side plate on the opposite side of the lock is genuine and original to the musket. Here's why.

The way the heads of the "side nails" or what we call the Side Plate Screws look "melted" into their Side Plate Recesses. Personally I've always been amazed at how nicely British and Irish "Stockers" did this on the King's Muskets when using only hand tools and before there were interchangeable parts.

Since there were no interchangeable parts back then and the location of the screw holes in the lock plates were never exactly the same, the only way to get the extremely nice Side Plate Recesses correct for the Heads of the Side Plates screws, was to have this Side Plate individually fitted to the lock on the Musket.

Further, the stock has been WAY over sanded sometime during it's life time. That means the Side Plate now stands "more proud" or further out from the stock than when it was originally inletted. Once they sanded down the stock as much as an eighth inch, as it looks like they did, that will make the Side Plate look a bit strange.

Gus

 

[cebusey]

Sound advice.

Has anyone heard of a case recently where upon an old original blew up or apart by some one who did not know any better?
I have not. Only ones I've seen fail are from them being loaded wrong.

Recently no - I have handled one or rather what was left of a civil war flint to percussion conversion of a potsdam musket that burst it's barrel about 2 inches in front of the top mounted nipple. I do not know the cause though i suspect it was due to improper loading. I also do not know the extent of the injuries though i suspect they were severe - possibly fatal. A small town about 15 miles from me had british carronade captured during the war of 1812. They would roll it out on the 4th and fire it until one numb nut either over charged it or used smokeless and burst the tube. By the grace of God it burst the bottom of the barrel an no injuries occurred.

 

[RedRiverII]

Terrific thread for this new comer, thank you all. I have shortcomings aplenty, but thanks be to the Lord controlling explosions with unknown rifles is not one of them. A moment of gratification does not come close to a lifetime of regret.

 

[toot]

them big old 69 to 75 CAL, are made to shoot 1FG OR 2FG not a fine grade of powder. although it can be done. a rule of thumb is any CAL over 50, 2FG.

 

[toot]

I would consider inspecting the weapon and not fire it, just preserve it. One has to know the methods of metallurgy back in the day to fully understand the prospects of ruining the weapon.

the metallurgy must have been good to survive till today? jmho?

 

[galoot]

Speaking from a collectors point of view, many people generally prefer a piece left as found, and nothing done to an item that can't be undone or reversed. Removing and stabilizing rust (especially the red stuff) is fine. Re-conversion of pieces that were once flint, turned into percussion pieces, and then made into flinters again can raise questions about what else was done and how much is truly original or the result of a highly skilled forger---or restorer. In some cases, "restoration" can badly devalue the piece.

I collect, I also shoot some of them although there are a few that could be fired, that I won't. One of them is a completely original and all intact 1795 Springfield flinter made in 1799. It's too rare to risk damaging, running the risk one of the original springs might snap, let alone one of the barrel weld seams opening. When a piece is old and valuable, it might be best to leave well enough alone by doing the least amount of harm possible.

I would suggest removing active rust and stabilizing the newly exposed metal with a very light coat of fine soft furniture wax. try to avoid oil as the wood can soak it up, and dirt/dust will stick and can build up over time. Wax is easily removed, and on a warm day in the sun, rubs off easily with a soft clean cotton or flannel cloth.

I don't recall anyone suggesting inspecting the bore by using a digital inspection scope that can be inserted down the barrel. These can be bought on ebay and elsewhere. Entry level ones can be bought for about $15 (give or take). There are models that work with laptops, tablets, and cell phones (Windows/Macs/Androids and even linux models!) Using an endoscope will allow you to see the face of the breech and other details, and you might not even want to have the breech plug removed. Something to think about?

 

[sawyer04]

the metallurgy must have been good to survive till today? jmho?

Rightly so, in the day of manufacture, Being familiar with barrel making and oxidation over period of time to forged parts I feel the barrel seam, and possibly breech area should be x-rayed before lighting up. Understand this precautionary measure is not subject to most, but is in my case. I have seen what looked like pristine crack under load pressures, not blow open, but bulge and crack.
Of course, if the owner wants to tie the weapon to a tree and and chance it, who am I to say? Go right ahead.

 

[toot]

ROGER THAT!

 

[lexington1]

Did you get my pm?

 

[Rudyard]

Speaking from a collectors point of view, many people generally prefer a piece left as found, and nothing done to an item that can't be undone or reversed. Removing and stabilizing rust (especially the red stuff) is fine. Re-conversion of pieces that were once flint, turned into percussion pieces, and then made into flinters again can raise questions about what else was done and how much is truly original or the result of a highly skilled forger---or restorer. In some cases, "restoration" can badly devalue the piece.

I collect, I also shoot some of them although there are a few that could be fired, that I won't. One of them is a completely original and all intact 1795 Springfield flinter made in 1799. It's too rare to risk damaging, running the risk one of the original springs might snap, let alone one of the barrel weld seams opening. When a piece is old and valuable, it might be best to leave well enough alone by doing the least amount of harm possible.

I would suggest removing active rust and stabilizing the newly exposed metal with a very light coat of fine soft furniture wax. try to avoid oil as the wood can soak it up, and dirt/dust will stick and can build up over time. Wax is easily removed, and on a warm day in the sun, rubs off easily with a soft clean cotton or flannel cloth.

I don't recall anyone suggesting inspecting the bore by using a digital inspection scope that can be inserted down the barrel. These can be bought on ebay and elsewhere. Entry level ones can be bought for about $15 (give or take). There are models that work with laptops, tablets, and cell phones (Windows/Macs/Androids and even linux models!) Using an endoscope will allow you to see the face of the breech and other details, and you might not even want to have the breech plug removed. Something to think about?

Galoot makes good points every collector prefers a sleeper or 'attic pristine' piece . Though some pieces are so abused that restoration is the only way to save it . As a restorer I have gone to great pains to' salvage ' Some real wrecks .One was a pre 1805 Baker rifle that had been robbed of all the brass except the side plate & the escutchion ,had its fore end whittled down to fit some iron band while they filed off every loop & the front sight for good? measure & no lock . ' Basket case' is the term would fit .but the bore was fine so I made wood patterns oversize had them cast in yellow brass & fettled the castings to fit removeing no original inlet wood ' fitted new loops scarfed on a new fore end made & fitted the pipes & the Armourer of the Sharpe's Series gave me an Indian rammer so saved me makeing one .& the lock I found at Allentown Gun show & it fitted perfectly .. So now I have a tollerable example of a Baker rifle & feel no guilt by doing so ,nor the numerous relics Iv'e made to live again from parts floating in a box have oft been wedded to appropriate barrels' Made not as fakes but for use or to have an example but mostly to save the parts from obscurity . So I think there is a case for restoration by skilled hands .
Original 1810 locks ' I bought a dozen at 10 shillings apiece once but that was a while ago .Welcome to the Forum'
Regards Rudyard .

 

[lexington1]

If you should ever get the desire to sell it or swap it I would be most interested.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Galoot makes good points every collector prefers a sleeper or 'attic pristine' piece . Though some pieces are so abused that restoration is the only way to save it . As a restorer I have gone to great pains to' salvage ' Some real wrecks .One was a pre 1805 Baker rifle that had been robbed of all the brass except the side plate & the escutchion ,had its fore end whittled down to fit some iron band while they filed off every loop & the front sight for good? measure & no lock . ' Basket case' is the term would fit .but the bore was fine so I made wood patterns oversize had them cast in yellow brass & fettled the castings to fit removeing no original inlet wood ' fitted new loops scarfed on a new fore end made & fitted the pipes & the Armourer of the Sharpe's Series gave me an Indian rammer so saved me makeing one .& the lock I found at Allentown Gun show & it fitted perfectly .. So now I have a tollerable example of a Baker rifle & feel no guilt by doing so ,nor the numerous relics Iv'e made to live again from parts floating in a box have oft been wedded to appropriate barrels' Made not as fakes but for use or to have an example but mostly to save the parts from obscurity . So I think there is a case for restoration by skilled hands .
Original 1810 locks ' I bought a dozen at 10 shillings apiece once but that was a while ago .Welcome to the Forum'
Regards Rudyard .

Did you not say you brought the locks in Afghanistan or some other remote place in a previous string. I just started with an 1810 lock and building the rest. I am building it in my own style, Should have thought of making a Bsker , next time. There was a Baker mint at Dorking antique guns uk for £4500. Some 17 mikes from me in uk. Google them The eBay lock cost me £220 on eBay. I offered £260 cash for a mint one but was turned down only to find it sold for £240. Getting walnut or even maple is very expensive like £200/ rifle. Having said that I just put £40 of diesel in my Motorhome and got just 5 uk gallons. Everything is going up in price. Foreign companies are buying up our. English companies and the government lets them. I recall Dutch own our electric and Australia owns our water outrageous. Just a hint of the uk from guns I know I wish you well

I add in a similar manner this mill Christchurch uk. It’s mentioned in the Doomsday book. Pre 1066 In similar manner to guns it had had brick renovations as late as 1800 but that’s all part of the history. Mods from 1850 are important on this Bess case it may show how flints flints were converted to percussion very historic. Just rambling along love this forum and it’s contributors Gordon

i

 

[Artificer]

Did you not say you brought the locks in Afghanistan or some other remote place in a previous string. I just started with an 1810 lock and building the rest. I am building it in my own style, Should have thought of making a Bsker , next time. There was a Baker mint at Dorking antique guns uk for £4500. Some 17 mikes from me in uk. Google them The eBay lock cost me £220 on eBay. I offered £260 cash for a mint one but was turned down only to find it sold for £240. Getting walnut or even maple is very expensive like £200/ rifle. Having said that I just put £40 of diesel in my Motorhome and got just 5 uk gallons. Everything is going up in price. Foreign companies are buying up our. English companies and the government lets them. I recall Dutch own our electric and Australia owns our water outrageous. Just a hint of the uk from guns I know I wish you well

I add in a similar manner this mill Christchurch uk. It’s mentioned in the Doomsday book. Pre 1066 In similar manner to guns it had had brick renovations as late as 1800 but that’s all part of the history. Mods from 1850 are important on this Bess case it may show how flints flints were converted to percussion very historic. Just rambling along love this forum and it’s contributors Gordon

i

WOW, a structure mentioned in the Doomsday book is still standing?! That's a wonderful part of history that hasn't been lost! May I ask where that is located?

I was very surprised when I visited Coventry years ago and so many Post and Whittle and Daub houses still stood from probably a little later in the Medieval period, especially after the Nazi's fire bombed Coventry during WWII. They may or even probably had extensive repairs done, but still it was a thrill to see them.


Gus

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Hello. Yes it’s at Christchurch on England’s south coast probably on images mind you the Tower of London stems from 1066. Swans were very tame No gun shops there though There’s a lot of realy old stuff around the uk even in bombed out London. Like the old Nick or prison tourist attraction now

 

[Gordoncourtney]

The Rapido is old at 2001 but it’s perfect for parking I wanted a new big A class ok for France but not uk. I get 28 mpg diesel but fuel. Is £1.62 per litre Bloody expensive. £1.30 in France and they had riots over fuel costs The gunny bit was I wanted it for hunting in France as you don’t need a permit for BP guns buy you need an elusive permit to carry. Enjoy The coach look one is a 2008 A class. £45k. Mine cost £9k. Ha h. Well I am a poor pensioner at 78.