brown bess, civilian use?

[old ugly]

I would assume that the brown bess would have found its way into the hands of civilians and used for hunting and defence in the early 1800s.
I am wondering what modifications would have been done to it?
cut shorter?
is there any descriptions or photos of one that has been modified?

thanks
ou

 

[Treestalker]

IIRC the brown bess was bought from the English by the Mexican Gov't for thier army. It was used against the Texicans until the loss at San Jacinto. Perhaps some of the Texican veterans used them after picking them up as battlefield trophies? Just an idea. :idunno: Treestalker.

 

[Luke MacGillie]

It would seem that having either a military surplus or military pattern weapon was kinda like being on welfare. At least in Virginia there were arms of military style purchased to arm people who were too poor to buy their own guns. These weapons were kept in storage and then issued out to people when they went on militia duty, but were turned back in when the poor person came off duty. Thats Pre-Revolution Virginia mind ya, not a universal blanket statement for all of North America.

 

[old ugly]

I was wondering if they were gathered up and put back into service, or for parts or destroyed, probably not available to the public, and if so not that desirable when rifles were available.

 

[George]

This might have been one example. From the Shane interview with Wm. Moseby, telling of the Kentucky frontier in the area of Limestone, about 1782-1785:

"Had fire hunts, the deer would come down at night to get the moss out of the bottom of the river, in the shoals, grew in the bottom and pointed up frequently, a little above water, if not they would reach their nose down and nip it off. A canoe was gotten ready, a piece of green bark was spread over with sand, and on this a fire made of dry Linn, which made a very bright light. The steersman sat in one end and the light was placed in the other, the gunner in between. The deer would gaze at it, till they would come up to it and shoot, and the canoe was then loaded.

When we lived in the fort, we were often on short rations, had to live on deer, went on fire hunts 2 or 3 times a week.

First fire hunt at night went with my father and older brother, 4 large bucks were killed with the gun called Frank loaded with about 30 buckshot as large as our rifle balls now, and was taken by my father in the Revolution from a British soldier whom he overcome."

Spence

 

[Artificer]

Per Dr. De Witt Bailey, throughout most of the 18th Century, it seems the average expected service life of muskets in the British Army was only 10-12 years. Then the old muskets were replaced by new(er) ones and the old arms turned in to the Ordnance Board. However, it is not crystal clear what happened to the older arms. Bailey mentions that some were sold and I imagine those were ones that were serviceable or did not require a lot of fixing. Bailey also mentions that on broken guns, the serviceable locks may have been kept and reused as long as the Pattern Lock was not outdated. Bailey also mentions the brass from what must have been broken/junk muskets was saved and melted down for new brass parts.

Who bought the replaced muskets that were still serviceable? I can’t imagine they set up a “for sale” tent outside the Tower of London or Dublin Castle and sold them off one or a few at a time. I imagine that factors or speculators bought them. Perhaps, if not probably, also the East India Company at times?

What happened to the replaced muskets that were still serviceable and were not “surplused?” One might think they would have been sent to the Royal Governors in North America, but that does not seem to have been “the normal or regular” thing they did. When they did receive orders to send the guns to Colonial Governors, they normally did issue the oldest serviceable arms first, though. (A notable exception was the case of Governor Oglethorpe of Georgia, who as a friend of the King AND the fact that Georgia was to be a military buffer between Spain and the Carolina’s ”“ got BRAND NEW P1730 Muskets provided to him.)

If one looks at the documented accounts, it seems the Royal Governors in North America held onto the muskets far longer and in many cases, even when they were broken or unserviceable. Even when they received arms to be sold very cheaply for the poorer militia members, not many were sold as the arms were said to be too cumbersome and probably too large of bore size. What that sounds like to me is the arms so supplied were REALLY out of date muskets, especially in the early 18th century.

The more I research, the more it seems like Royal Governors sold very few “King’s Muskets” either because they did not want to purchase more to replace them or the ones they had for sale were not wanted by the American Colonists.

Muskets captured from Colonial Stores during the ARW were already older arms and then well used during the Revolution. Not sure how many of them would have been serviceable after the war and of course, they were now considered the property of the States. I imagine that any that were “surplused’ would have been in REALLY poor condition or damaged/unserviceable.

What about older Bess Muskets in Canada? I would love to have more documentation on them. I do know that most every really Early Brown Bess that has come to light at gun shows in America in the last 50 years seem to have mostly come down from Canada. (Notable exceptions are collections that CW has purchased and many of them overseas.) What that suggests to me is the Besses in Canada were stored and cleaned far longer in Canada "by the government" than was done here in America, perhaps?

Finally, at the Magazine in Colonial Williamsburg in recent years, CW interpreters also tell visitors that for some specific military expeditions, Virginians left their personal guns at home (for their families to defend themselves with) and were all issued Muskets out of the Magazine. This actually made good sense as there would have been no problem supplying paper cartridges that fit them. It also gave the added benefit of everyone having bayonets, which most sporting arms would not have had ”“ short of plug bayonets. However, I do not know what CW used to document that and I’ve only heard it very recently.
Gus

 

[Wes/Tex]

I recall reading recently about the issue of turned in muskets from the line regiments to the militia and fencible units in England and Scotland...this during the French Revolution/Napoleonic Wars period. One remark mentioned a unit still having muskets from the "American War". Now you're gong to make me go a hunt to see if i can find it again...you stinker, you! :wink: :haha:

 

[Artificer]

Actually, that makes sense to issue the older pattern arms to the British Militia during the Napoleonic War period as there was something of a real threat of Invasion, though the British Navy took care of that.

Gus

 

[pargent]

The King's musket remained the King's property until it was deemed unsuitable for service and stamped to show this and sold at auction ,all useable parts etc were returned to the Tower ,serviceable parts were then repaired ,modified, reworked for the use in the manufacture of lesser arms eg for the Horse and Sea service .Brass was melted down and sold to the companies who supplied brass hardware to the Tower .Some muskets of inferior quality eg Leige muskets (the worst of) were sold off almost straight away .FOR A CIVILIAN TO HAVE IN HIS POSSESION A BESS IT WOULD HAVE TO BE ONE OF THE ABOVE or a battle field pick up POST 1776

 

[pargent]

The last of the Short Land Pattern muskets were made in 1804 , the British Milita were issued the MILITA MUSKET (DURING THE WARS WITH THE French CIRA 1780S -1815 ) SORRY BUT iAM SUFFERING FROM STICKY BUTTONS

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Part of the question is Geography...

For example, the colony of Maryland kept a large store of muskets, more than a thousand, and judging from the reports they kept swords, bayonets, cartridge boxes, and drums as well. Some were not useable, some quite rusty, but others were in working order... and even the ones that were made from "scratch" followed the basic lines of the Long Land pattern bess.

From the date of the reports on the conditions of the muskets... these would have been Long Land pattern muskets, and it's unknown if any had been converted over to metal ramrods or if the front portion of the stock nose had been covered with a nose cap.

Some of the Highland soldiers who served in the F&I and Pontiac's Rebellion are documented as being mustered out in the colonies, and being allowed to keep their Long Land pattern musket, but no bayonet.

We also have records that show that Rogers' Rangers contracted at one point to have some muskets made for them... we think these were probably patterned after the Long Land musket, AND the theory is that IF rangers shortened some muskets, it was these privately owned versions, not actual King's Muskets (since the King didn't say "OK") that were shortened. So some of those could be floating around in 1800...

Now Maryland made a large amount of "Committee of Safety Muskets", which probably made use of any of the spare parts left over from the unrepairable muskets in storage...at least at first. So you might see some Maryland Continentals, and some Maryland Militia with a "frankenbess" musket... looks sorta British, but might have a Dutch barrel, and might also have a flat sided lock....

During the AWI the United States adopted the French musket, and later US Muskets were patterned after the French..., so what if anything was done with the British muskets in storage in Annapolis is a guess right now.

The muskets purchased by the Mexicans were 3rd model Bess muskets... and the ones that ended up in some armories in Southern states what were converted to caplock... were of that pattern.

Alas but the 2nd model, or Short Land Pattern probably saw very few numbers in North America...yet that's the factory style that we get from Italy....

LD

 

[tenngun]

Manual Lisa was carring a bb in the early 19th century. On a thread about caps vs flint on the Texas frontier qoutes the sizue of BB muskets from a bandito group. Lots of Arab an Indian guns have bb locks and barrels.

 

[Artificer]

The last of the Short Land Pattern muskets were made in 1804 , the British Milita were issued the MILITA MUSKET (DURING THE WARS WITH THE French CIRA 1780S -1815 ) SORRY BUT iAM SUFFERING FROM STICKY BUTTONS

Good point and that is correct, but it must also be pointed out the Ordnance Board System almost completely broke down during the Napoleonic Wars and had to resort to buying vast numbers of Dutch made Muskets that were patterned after the Bess, but of lesser quality. The Ordnance Board even had to swallow the use of Beech Stocks on many of these muskets as there was just not enough Walnut available. These Muskets were issued to Regular British Army units in the huge build up and "emergency" of the beginning of that war. So until the initial emergency of not having enough muskets for the Regulars, I have no doubt that the Ordnance Board issued older, but serviceable earlier muskets they still had in store for the huge build up of their Militia Forces at home - while they were trying to completely arm the Regulars with newer muskets.

Now to give an idea of how much the Ordnance Board loathed the Dutch Muskets they were forced to buy, the very first muskets sold off after the Napoleonic Wars were those Dutch Muskets. When new muskets were then made after the war, they were made of "proper walnut stocks" and to the higher British Ordnance standards.

The Dutch made muskets were virtually all engraved with "GR" and the Crown to signify they were indeed the "King's Muskets," and were re-marked to show they were no longer the King's Property when sold. Some of these muskets have shown up in the modern Collecting Market from time to time and were not well identified until Dr. Bailey did his research and published it.

Gus

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Keep in mind that British muskets surrendered at Yorktown and other places as well as those taken by other means were cleaned, repaired when necessary, and issued to US regulars along with French muskets after the Revolution during the early days of the American republic. Those not needed for issue, both British and French, were kept in storage at various arsenals including Springfield as well as others. The entire US Army was not issued French muskets or the early made US copies thereof until the time of the War of 1812. Militia continued to be issued British flint muskets as late as 1861.

For good information read U.S. Military Flintlock Muskets, and Their Bayonets, the Early Years, 1790-1815 by Peter A. Schmidt as well as American Military Shoulder Arms: From the 1790s to the End of the Flintlock Period: Vol 2 by George D. Moller.

For information on the issue of British flint muskets to some companies of the Virginia state militia in 1861 - especially those of the less than reliably loyal western counties - at the beginning of the American Civil War, see "Message from the Execttive of the Commonwealth,
with Accompanying Documents, Showing the Military and Naval Preparations for the Defence of the State of Virginia" at:
http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/message/message.html

The Brown Bess served on for almost 80 years in American hands after the end of the American Revolution.

 

[Artificer]

Some of the Highland soldiers who served in the F&I and Pontiac's Rebellion are documented as being mustered out in the colonies, and being allowed to keep their Long Land pattern musket, but no bayonet.
LD

That is interesting! We know some Companies of the 42nd came to America with the LL Muskets, but later ones came with the "Artillery Carbine" that was also re-designated the "Highland or Highlander's Carbine." It seems all the 42nd were rearmed with the Carbine before the War's end.

Do you remember which Highland Unit/s members were allowed to keep the LL Muskets or was it a sort of general thing amoung the Highlanders that were "mustered out" here after the war?

Alas but the 2nd model, or Short Land Pattern probably saw very few numbers in North America...yet that's the factory style that we get from Italy....

LD

I first met Val Forgett (Senior) in the mid 70's and worked a good number of years at the Spring and Fall National Championships of the NSSA in what was called "The Navy Arms Booth" before they actually had a separate booth in the mid/late 80's. I asked Val why he had used the Short Land pattern to have copied. To sum up his rather complicated answer; it was a combination of what some advanced collectors and historians told him, the original muskets available to buy and yes, the short pattern cost less to reproduce.

In more recent years it has come to light the Royal Marines were issued the short "Marine Pattern Musket" they used at the Battle of Breed's Hill, BUT also re-enactment units who have researched their original units that fought at Breed's Hill found documentation that other than the Grenadier Coy's - they were issued New Short Land Pattern Muskets before coming over and fighting at Breed's Hill.

Unlike the French and Indian War where some Regular Units turned in their newer iron/steel rammer muskets for wooden ramrod muskets before coming to America and that conflict seen as not as important as the French Threat at home - in the ARW the British issued the newest Muskets they had first to Regulars who came here early as the Rebellion was to hold onto their large holdings in America. Also, they were not at war with France at the time, so they sent their best (newer) muskets with the troops at first.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Keep in mind that British muskets surrendered at Yorktown and other places as well as those taken by other means were cleaned, repaired when necessary, and issued to US regulars along with French muskets after the Revolution during the early days of the American republic. Those not needed for issue, both British and French, were kept in storage at various arsenals including Springfield as well as others. The entire US Army was not issued French muskets or the early made US copies thereof until the time of the War of 1812. Militia continued to be issued British flint muskets as late as 1861.

For good information read U.S. Military Flintlock Muskets, and Their Bayonets, the Early Years, 1790-1815 by Peter A. Schmidt as well as American Military Shoulder Arms: From the 1790s to the End of the Flintlock Period: Vol 2 by George D. Moller.

For information on the issue of British flint muskets to some companies of the Virginia state militia in 1861 - especially those of the less than reliably loyal western counties - at the beginning of the American Civil War, see "Message from the Execttive of the Commonwealth,
with Accompanying Documents, Showing the Military and Naval Preparations for the Defence of the State of Virginia" at:
http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/message/message.html

The Brown Bess served on for almost 80 years in American hands after the end of the American Revolution.

WOW, that is superb documentation!! I was truly impressed by the fact that Muskets were designated as U.S., Virginia Manufactory of Arms, and especially the 900 muskets noted as "English Muskets." It is a shame they did not delineate what the "Altered Muskets" and generic "Flint Muskets" were, but that was not important to them at the time.

Gus

 

[pargent]

1 The Marines did not have a Royal designation at the time of the AWI.
2 The Marine musket at the time of the AWI was very much the same as the Short Land Pattern , unlike their earlier muskets which were a better put together Sea Service musket .(still not up to the quality of the land muskets )
3 By the time of the AWI early preproduction Short Land Pattern Muskets (several thousand ) had been used in combat for around 8 years by regular regiments serving in India along side EIC troops armed with their 39 inch India EIC pattern muskets .

 

[Loyalist Dave]

in the ARW the British issued the newest Muskets they had first to Regulars who came here early as the Rebellion was to hold onto their large holdings in America. Also, they were not at war with France at the time, so they sent their best (newer) muskets with the troops at first.

IF you are suggesting the SLP musket arrived in America in the hands of more than a very few units... you are incorrect. The documentation is there that while the pattern was adopted in 1769... very very few units had access to them as unused unissued "new" muskets of the latest change to the LLP musket were available and the ordinance board determined to use them up prior to releasing the SLP in large numbers.

Also it should be noted that Highland regiments began to shorten their LLP muskets to 42" barrels, and one should not assume that Marines whose primary duty was aboard ship, were issued SLP muskets. References such as "newly shortened" or "new shorter muskets" may actually be shortened LLP's.

The Italian version is almost a 1777 style, not the earlier 1769, although it's missing a special ramrod thimble added to aid in returning the rammer in a quick manner..., and it was not issued to any units that came to America in any references that I have seen.

My source has told me that basically, when it came time to reproduce the Bess for the upcoming American bicentennial, what was thought to be a SLP Bess from 1769 was copied as it was assumed that since it was "accepted" in 1769 it must have been fully implemented by 1775... as time has continued better research shows the musket pattern is wrong... an understandable mistake, and no market pressure to change.

A problem with some southern states having converted Bess muskets is people forget the large numbers captured at New Orleans, 3rd models... I understand for example that some of the companies in the 10th Tennessee Infantry CSA were armed with the 3rd model bess when first formed.

LD

 

[pargent]

No I was trying to point out that the issue of arms to line regiments in the British Army at times did not depend on events in AMERICA but rather on what else was going on around the world , it is just that when an author writes an extensive work it is often aimed somewhat at where the most sales will take place , eg Bailey's books run from $20-$60 US and they are worth much more where as Harding's work runs around $1000 a volume

 

[nkbj]

Over the years, seeing how people adapt what is available to their needs, I've been waiting in expectation for an example of a shortened bess with sights fitted and the bore cut rifled by some enterprising soul. But, while I'm sure someone somewhere did such modification I am equally sure that the vast majority of information on muzzleloading arms has been lost to history as are the people that used them.