Brown Bess Carbine Question.

[kyle_kalasnik]

Good afternoon,

I have few questions regarding Pedersoli’s Brown Bess Carbine.

Does anyone here have any experience with one, and what are your opinions

If I was to purchase one, would some alterations allow it to be a miltia / civilian musket for the American Revolution / War of 1812? Much like the Committee of Safety Muskets that Dave at Lodgewood did with the Brown Bess Musket.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

Respectfully,
Kyle Kalasnik

 

[tenngun]

This might need to be on the smoothbore forum.
The COS muskets were copied off of besses, the only ones I’ve seen were full length and not carbines. And such guns were held by the state, so someone wouldn’t have a chance to modify on their own.
That said every regiment had an armorer available. A gun in use could have to be modified to be used if it was damaged in some way. So it’s not impossible that short gun could be used.
By the time of war of 1812 America had made their own muskets based on French design. A militia man might have had an old gun that was modified. Manual Lisa owned a ‘sportirised’ Brown Bess. And a sawn off besse was taken from a bushlopper in Texas in the 1840s.
Besses used during war of 1812 was the ‘third model’ and had a different shaped stock then the ‘second model’ of the revolution. A modified bess carried by a militia man that looked line the Pedi would have been near fifty years old. That’s not impossible. Most people werenot ‘gun nuts’ back then and may have done very little hunting or shooting. Most people lived in well settled areas.
Your best bet would be check with a group you would attend with. What ‘could have been’ or was ‘very rare’ is historicly correct but may be mixed by a group, as it wants an average or typical.

 

[kyle_kalasnik]

Appreciate the informative response. Looks like it’ll be a 1795 for me.

Respextfully,
Kyle Kalasnik

 

[Many Klatch]

I have a Pedersoli Bess Carbine and have been shooting it for 20 years. It's reliable, as unbreakable as a granite rock. I shoot a .715 ball over 90 grains of 2f with a .010 spit patch. I have hit a large gong 3 out of 5 shots at 100 yards with it. It has a heavy trigger pull from the factory, you may want to find someone knowledgeable to do some work on the lock to make the trigger pull more acceptable.

Original Service loads varied between 110-120 grains to 90 grains. 120 grains is a bit abusive and it really empties a powder can fast. The big lock will drop sparks on the floor. I load and prime with 2F. I don't see any lag in the ignition.

FYI, Original British Bess Carbines were .65 Caliber. No matter how much work you do on the wood and rammers and other items, there is no way to avoid that. There were a few 12 gauge Carbines made but they were not common. The carbines were issued to Cavalry, Artillery and Light Troops. A lot of Carbines were made. I don't keep up on things like that but thousands were brought to the Colonies during the unpleasantness. So while not as Common as the full sized Bess issued to the Line Troops there were plenty of them around.

 

[kyle_kalasnik]

I have a Pedersoli Bess Carbine and have been shooting it for 20 years. It's reliable, as unbreakable as a granite rock. I shoot a .715 ball over 90 grains of 2f with a .010 spit patch. I have hit a large gong 3 out of 5 shots at 100 yards with it. It has a heavy trigger pull from the factory, you may want to find someone knowledgeable to do some work on the lock to make the trigger pull more acceptable.

Original Service loads varied between 110-120 grains to 90 grains. 120 grains is a bit abusive and it really empties a powder can fast. The big lock will drop sparks on the floor. I load and prime with 2F. I don't see any lag in the ignition.

FYI, Original British Bess Carbines were .65 Caliber. No matter how much work you do on the wood and rammers and other items, there is no way to avoid that. There were a few 12 gauge Carbines made but they were not common. The carbines were issued to Cavalry, Artillery and Light Troops. A lot of Carbines were made. I don't keep up on things like that but thousands were brought to the Colonies during the unpleasantness. So while not as Common as the full sized Bess issued to the Line Troops there were plenty of them around.

Thanks for sharing your experience with it.

 

[RAEDWALD]

Not quite the period but the British Ordnance did have many ex infantry Brown Bess cut down to 26" 0,750" carbines for use by Fencible, Yeomanry and Volunteer cavalry in the latter part of the Napoleonic War to free proper carbines for active use by their own cavalry and allied cavalry. I have seen letters from both my old Yeomanry regiment and (IIRC) a Norfolk one complaining that they had less than a dozen carbines to a troop and these old and worn. So a cut down 0,750" Bess was a real and issued Ordnance item, but not in the time and place of the OP. Chisnall & Davies show photographs of one on page 181 of their 'British Cavalry Carbines & Pistols of the Napoleonic Era', complete with aded sling bar

 

[Britsmoothy]

If you were in the UK you could have mine for she is a greedy girl for what I use her for.

 

[kyle_kalasnik]

Not quite the period but the British Ordnance did have many ex infantry Brown Bess cut down to 26" 0,750" carbines for use by Fencible, Yeomanry and Volunteer cavalry in the latter part of the Napoleonic War to free proper carbines for active use by their own cavalry and allied cavalry. I have seen letters from both my old Yeomanry regiment and (IIRC) a Norfolk one complaining that they had less than a dozen carbines to a troop and these old and worn. So a cut down 0,750" Bess was a real and issued Ordnance item, but not in the time and place of the OP. Chisnall & Davies show photographs of one on page 181 of their 'British Cavalry Carbines & Pistols of the Napoleonic Era', complete with aded sling bar

Appreciate the response.

 

[Artificer]

Kyle,

I bought mine around 1975. I shot it in competitions like "The Northwest Trade Gun Aggregate" at Friendship, IN and other places. I also used it to reenact as a Sergeant of Continental Marines, because Sergeants were issued Carbines, when available. This even though the original Carbines were .66 cal. and the barrel length was longer at around 37 inches. No one was making an accurate copy of an original carbine in those days though, so that was as close as I could come.

As someone mentioned, ALL Muskets or Carbines really need a good trigger job done to them for the best accuracy and the Pedersoli Carbine is no exception. The normal regular trigger pull made it a bit difficult to use with shot for trap/skeet and live birds, but I did OK with round balls. I sure enjoyed that Carbine, though I actually learned to do trigger jobs on them later on and wished I had known how to do that back then.

The only reason I traded that Carbine off was when in the late 1990's, I joined the Major's Coy, 42nd Royal Highland Regiment, the Black Watch. They allowed me to use my carbine, but preferred the full length musket. This is something to keep in mind if you are planning on joining a reenactment unit, as some units won't allow the Carbine, even though cut down Muskets were known to be used in the period you mentioned.

Gus

 

[kyle_kalasnik]

Kyle,

I bought mine around 1975. I shot it in competitions like "The Northwest Trade Gun Aggregate" at Friendship, IN and other places. I also used it to reenact as a Sergeant of Continental Marines, because Sergeants were issued Carbines, when available. This even though the original Carbines were .66 cal. and the barrel length was longer at around 37 inches. No one was making an accurate copy of an original carbine in those days though, so that was as close as I could come.

As someone mentioned, ALL Muskets or Carbines really need a good trigger job done to them for the best accuracy and the Pedersoli Carbine is no exception. The normal regular trigger pull made it a bit difficult to use with shot for trap/skeet and live birds, but I did OK with round balls. I sure enjoyed that Carbine, though I actually learned to do trigger jobs on them later on and wished I had known how to do that back then.

The only reason I traded that Carbine off was when in the late 1990's, I joined the Major's Coy, 42nd Royal Highland Regiment, the Black Watch. They allowed me to use my carbine, but preferred the full length musket. This is something to keep in mind if you are planning on joining a reenactment unit, as some units won't allow the Carbine, even though cut down Muskets were known to be used in the period you mentioned.

Gus

Thanks Gus,

With respect, I really have no interest in reenacting. I have just recently started to research and get into flintlocks. I just would like to purchase a few for shooting once or twice a year and to be companion pieces to my Civil War percussions that hang in my bar.
Appreciate the informative response.

 

[tenngun]

For the money it’s hard to beat a pedi. While not top in historic accuracy on this type of gun it looks great and is a shooter. You have to be a knit- picker to find out what’s wrong from it from an historic perspective.
A word of warning. When you start shooting rock in the locks then cap guns just ain’t as fun any more.
And as long as your shooting it you might as well get a bag and horn to match. Well shoot, if you got a bag and horn a riflemans shirt would help keep your clothing clean when you go to the range. Since you got the shirt it wouldn’t hurt to get a pair of drop front trousers. Maybe a knife to match the whole kit.... whoops your now a living history nerd.

 

[kyle_kalasnik]

For the money it’s hard to beat a pedi. While not top in historic accuracy on this type of gun it looks great and is a shooter. You have to be a knit- picker to find out what’s wrong from it from an historic perspective.
A word of warning. When you start shooting rock in the locks then cap guns just ain’t as fun any more.
And as long as your shooting it you might as well get a bag and horn to match. Well shoot, if you got a bag and horn a riflemans shirt would help keep your clothing clean when you go to the range. Since you got the shirt it wouldn’t hurt to get a pair of drop front trousers. Maybe a knife to match the whole kit.... whoops your now a living history nerd.

Funny how the snowball effect takes form huh.

 

[Artificer]

Hi Kyle,

The bore size in my old Brown Bess Carbine was .753" when measured at the muzzle. I used a .735 ball, greased pillow ticking patch and 70 Grains of FFg real black powder. Yes, I had to use a short starter with that load.

It was easy to "split the ball on the axe blade" firing from 15 yards offhand and each part of the bullet bust a clay pigeon on both sides. When I did my part, it wasn't that difficult to break a vertical string at 25 yards. I learned to consistently hit a 1 gallon milk jug, firing offhand at 100 yards between 8 and 9 times out of 10.

I never got a good shot load for it in the late 70's because I didn't know how to do it back then, though with the information easily available now, it would not be hard to do.

Fun gun to shoot and hunt with.

Gus

 

[kyle_kalasnik]

Hi Kyle,

The bore size in my old Brown Bess Carbine was .753" when measured at the muzzle. I used a .735 ball, greased pillow ticking patch and 70 Grains of FFg real black powder. Yes, I had to use a short starter with that load.

It was easy to "split the ball on the axe blade" firing from 15 yards offhand and each part of the bullet bust a clay pigeon on both sides. When I did my part, it wasn't that difficult to break a vertical string at 25 yards. I learned to consistently hit a 1 gallon milk jug, firing offhand at 100 yards between 8 and 9 times out of 10.

I never got a good shot load for it in the late 70's because I didn't know how to do it back then, though with the information easily available now, it would not be hard to do.

Fun gun to shoot and hunt with.

Gus

Thank you Gus, it seems to me that this musket gets very favorable reviews from everyone.

 

[Artificer]

You are most welcome.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Sorry, forgot to mention that 11 gauge cards and wads worked perfectly in that Bess. Surprisingly, they were not that hard to locate even back in the late 70's.

Spence 10 has related something I never thought about when using a ball with a smoothbore. He uses a powder card over the powder, then a wad, then a patched round ball and he doesn't use quite as tight of a patch as I did. So I would try that with slightly thinner greased patch material, than I did in the old days.

Gus

 

[kyle_kalasnik]

Sorry, forgot to mention that 11 gauge cards and wads worked perfectly in that Bess. Surprisingly, they were not that hard to locate even back in the late 70's.

Spence 10 has related something I never thought about when using a ball with a smoothbore. He uses a powder card over the powder, then a wad, then a patched round ball and he doesn't use quite as tight of a patch as I did. So I would try that with slightly thinner greased patch material, than I did in the old days.

Gus

Hmmm I’ll have to do a bit of research on this. I’m new to flintlocks. Appreciate it.

 

[Many Klatch]

Kyle, if you are going to shoot the Bess in competition and you don't really care about meeting some units written rules then there are a few things that you can do to improve the accuracy of the Carbine.

1- No Bess has a front sight, that square knob of steel on the end of the muzzle is a bayonet lug. It is too big to function as much of a sight. I saw a picture of an original that had modified the front sight, so I figured I could do that too. I filed the bayonet lug down about half way and then used a Dremel to cut a slot in the remaining lug. Then I soldered a half penny into the slot. With a bit of file work that made for a fine front sight.

2 - No Bess has a rear sight of any kind. Most smoothbore matches don't allow rear sights above the plane of the barrel. However you can use a rear sight BELOW the plane of the barrel. My Carbine has two. One is a notch filed into the Tang behind the barrel. The other is an improved tang bolt. I took out the original that was flush with the tang and found a hex head bolt of the same thread and size. Chucked the bolt into an electric drill and with a file turned the hex into a round head. Then I cut a screwdriver slot in the head. That slot makes a good rear of the gun sighting reference.

The Carbine is fun to shoot. I have shot roundball, buckshot and birdshot from it. The big slow lock messes up my shotgun technique so I don't shoot clay birds with it much. But when it hits a gong it really makes the steel plates dance. Downside is that you only get 11 balls per pound of lead. If I shoot 40 shots from the Bess in a weekend that is 4 pounds of lead that went downrange. So you will need a source for cheap lead. Make friends with plumbers and roofers.

 

[kyle_kalasnik]

Excellent. I help a good friend during winter layoff who has a plumbing business. Thank you for the advice.

 

[Grenadier1758]

With the 0.750 bore of a Pedersoli Bess, I also used the #11 gauge wads. A 12 gauge wad is too loose to be effective.

I also believe that Dixie also recommends 11 gauge components in their catalog.