Breech plug embarassment

[Notremor]

Without going into the embarrassing details my ram rod got stuck with a cleaning patch at the range this weekend. When I got home I decided to take off the barrel and remove the breech plug and push it through. When I removed the barrel, what apeared to be the breech plug (I am new to the sport and have never really seen a breech plug) had no obvious way to remove it. I tried turning it but gave up because I was causing some minor damage trying to grip it with the wrench. I was eventually able to pull out the rod. I have ordered a "range rod".

I give up, how do you remove a breech plug? I assume its somewhat rifle specific but I would like to know the common options so I will never have to ask again.

P.S The 2 shots(first ever with BP) that were fired prior to getting the rod stuck were tremendous. At this rate it should only take me about 4 years to break in the barrel.

Thanks. TLD.

 

[Zonie]

The only way I know of to remove a breech plug is:
1. Have a REALLY BIG vise with aluminum or brass pads on the jaws and clamp the barrel in it.
2. Have a REALLY BIG adjustable wrench (for leverage) and clamp it onto the flats projection of the breech plug which sticks out the rear of the barrel OR
3. Get a special breech plug wrench to put on the plugs projection. These wrenches look like a 1/4 X 1 1/2 inch X 18 to 24 inch plate with slots cut thru it to position over the plugs projection (tang).
4. Take it to the local gunsmith who owns the equipment.
These plugs are really torqued in (I would guess with something like 90-150 ft lbs) so the average guy doesn't stand much of a chance. You were wise to stop before you dinged/buggered up the plug.

 

[Robert58]

We need to know what kind of rifle you have. But usually on a Flintlock or Sidelock Rifle you do not remove the breach plug. Only remove the breack plug on an Inline.

Good luck,
Robert

 

[Notremor]

I have been a traditional archer for a number of years and having an in-line rifle would be like owning a compound bow, if you know what I mean.

I have a H&A 0.36 cal underhammer rifle. I needed an inexpensive gun that I can shoot left handed and I purchased it before I learned that no real guns were made after 1840

.

What Jim says describes it perfectly. I did not feel "wise" trying to remove the plug.

Anything else I should know before I try again to take another 2 shots?

 

[Voyageur]

TLD...I've had to remove some tough breech plugs in my shop. I have some aluminum formed vise jaws that I use in the vise. I then use a gunsmiths barreling clamp and a cheater bar to avoid marring the breech plug/tang. Sometimes I've had to soak the threads with penetrating oil for a couple of days and apply heat (from a torch) to break the corrosion loose. But this is drastic work.

A properly installed breech plugh should have the threads cut so that, after a couple of turns, the tang will move laterally very little. The breech plug is turned in lacking 1/4 to 1/2 a flat of being in line with out excessive torque. The internal 'ledge' and the external forward portion of the tang should touch at the same time and the 'crush' fit should only be a couple of thousandths. This is a machinist fit and you do not get that from a factory. Instead they torque the plug to get a 'crush' fit that sometimes can crack or even warp the threads. 30 years ago there were some lawsuits settled out of court because of this 'over torqueing'. The companys involved also changed the 'tpi' (threads per inch) to help solve the production problems. Barrels and breech plugs are not hardened like the studs on a vehicle wheel. The barrels are made of stressproof, leadloy, etc. which are easily machined. The breech plugs can be made out of cold rolled steel.

But the important thing is that there were some companies that welded the breech plug in and I don't know how the breech plug could be removed. If you are unable to remove your breech plug when you need to...there is cause for concern. I would not ignore what has taken place.

Voyageur

 

[Notremor]

Voyageur: I am not sure I understand. Is it dangerous or just inconvenientnot to be unable to remove the breech plug? TLD.

 

[Voyageur]

If the breech won't move... why won't it move?

The lawsuits had to do with 'welds' that let go and 'torqued threads' that let go. It was written up and reported on in the old Buckskin Report that John Baird (Hawken Rifles...) published. Since the suits were settled out of court and replacement products were handed out, there is generally no mention of it. But I was there and it was reported in some papers. The 'welded' practice was stopped in it's tracks...I think.

I can remove the breech out of any firearm I have. Why shouldn't you be able to do the same...to remove an obstruction, examine the threads or look to see the state of your bore? It is entirely up to you my friend.

Voyageur

 

[Chuck Deaton]

Because I am an insurance adjuster, I am familiar with occurences, responsibility, subrogation and lawsuits.

In my opinion removing and installing breech plugs is best left to experienced, insured gunsmiths.

Should you or I do something that causes an occurence that maims someone else you can expect to be called to taw.

I hate it but that is the way society is these days.

 

[roundball]

TLD, while muzzleloading is not rocket science, a lot of what goes on is usually pretty foreign to most of us as newcomers because we don't encounter anything like it in normal life.

I think there's a lot of initial reading worth doing about the do's & don't's of muzzleloading that should be undertaken before you get too far into this...learning through trial & error can be very costly, frustrating, and potentially unsafe. Examples would be ways to easily remove that stuck ramrod.

A good black powder manual would be an excellent $15-18 investment and a night or two spent digesting it will be time well spent...I find myself going back through my various books time and time again...enjoy!

 

[Voyageur]

quote:Originally posted by DoLittle:
In my opinion removing and installing breech plugs is best left to experienced, insured gunsmiths.
Without trying to be offensive...are you saying that unscrewing what amounts to be a bolt and screwing it back in constitutes willfull and wanton disregard for human life?

In a court of law the manipulation of a threaded piece that was made to be taken apart, on a firearm that does not require a license to build, is a rash act?

I'm sorry DoLittle, there are just too many companys selling breechplugs for construction and replacement to the general public for me to find that credible.

Most blackpowder gunsmiths (and even makers) are self taught. I've seen some of most beautiful, correctly constructed flintlocks and percussion firearms come from home builders. Artisans who just use common sense which, I believe, is all that is required before the law.

Don't mean to make you feel uncomfortable but I feel that any man should be able to service his firearm in so simple a procedure.

Voyageur

 

[Chuck Deaton]

No offense taken, we are adults and should be able to discuss the issues surrounding muzzleloading, building, repairing, shooting and the political and legal climate surrounding those activities related to muzzleloading.

Certainly we are all entitled to our opinions, opinions that are based on our diverse backgrounds. My experience, accumulated over 30 years of insurance claims adjusting, is that anyone who works on guns runs the risk of being involved in a lawsuit if that gun causes damage to another person. Apparently your experience leads you to some other opinion and I respect that.

As per my prior post, my opinion is that removing and reinstalling breechplugs is best left to an experienced and insured gunsmith.

 

[Notremor]

Roundball:

A definative source would be greatly appreciated. The rod got stuck trying to pass a dry patch. This was recommended by one book and while another source I read said "never pass a dry cleaning patch". I have had 2 experienced people on this post tell me to leave the breech plug to a professional and another to try to remove it (using the propoer technique)to make sure it is installed properly.

Seriously, I can use all the help I can get so if you have the name of a good book, let me know.

TLD.

 

[Rocky Johnson]

TLD - I learned the hard way what happens when you put a dry patch down a fouled barrel too. Short jags couse more problems than long ones. Rocky

 

[Stumpkiller]

"I have been a traditional archer for a number of years and having an in-line rifle would be like owning a compound bow, if you know what I mean."

Good man. I'm a recurve & P.O. cedar man myself.

As a general rule it is best not to remove a tang endowed breechplug unless absolutely necessary as there is a chance the flats won't line up perfectly afterwards (the barrel and plug are draw-filed together so they blend seamlessly).

If, on the other hand, you're curious and want to understand blackpowder gunsmithing better have at it. I took apart my father's Ithaca Clock as a child just to see how it worked. Afterwards, the answer was simple: "it doesn't."

T/C used to sell a special attachment for removing the breech plug. If you have one of those you might still find one of the other. Some other makes have oddities like the nipple drum being threaded into the breech plug - so the drum must be removed first (same can be true of touch hole liners in flintlocks). You didn't mention the make, so you won't get a specific answer.

As Voyageur said: Penetrating oil and then heat (but seperately - I learned that it burns very well indeed). Pad the vice and wrench jaws with leather.

I have an ancient copy of "Blackpowder Gunsmithing" that has been helpful. Check out Brownell's for all the tools and a good library of books.

 

[roundball]

TLD...most basic, excellent books are available in Kmart and Walmart stores, and certainly well stocked sproting goods stores, gun shops, etc., and internet places like Amazon.com, etc

Some of the fairly common ones are:

Muzzleloading-The Complete Hunter, Toby Bridges
Advanced Black Powder Hunting-Toby Bridges
Gun Digest BlackPowder Loading Manual-3rd Ed.
Lyman Black Powder Handbook
T/C-Shooting BlackPowder Muzzleloading Firearms

PS: Only use a dry patch AFTER a barrel is clean, usually to wipe out any oil before loading to shoot...and you could have freed up that stuck dry patch just by getting it wet by pouring a teaspoon of water down the bore.

 

[Gray Beard]

I was on a fall trail ride this year where everybody was asked to tell the tale of the first time that you fell off a horse. Guess what? Everyone had a story! If you shoot a

muzzleloader, you will get something stuck in the barrel. Not if but when. It happens. Leave the breech plug alone. Unscrew either the nipple or the clean out screw on the drum that the nipple is screwed into. Dribble in some powder into the opening. Screw everything back in place, put on a cap, and shoot the obsruction out. Remember, safety first. This has always worked for me, and it's alot easier than falling off a horse! I'd also rather deal with a stuck ball than a stuck snowmobile. Frustration teaches patience.

 

[Zonie]

"To remove, or not to remove, That is the Question. Whether it is nobl..." Oh, this is shake rifle not Shakespear. Sorry.

As was mentioned, the maker of the rifle in question and the style of the breech has not been determined yet. These factor in to telling TLD what to look for to determine if it is indeed a threaded plug or just welded in place.
If the maker is a quality producer with a known history of making safe firearms I would question the whole idea of removing the plug and possibly damageing the rifle. I suspect that even if the plug were removed, little could be determined by TLD other than "boy, that was a real B**** to get out!" and "The threads look kinda rusty, gee I wonder if their still ok?" In other words, something only a gunsmith would know for sure.

So.....If it were my gun I would leave the plug alone and if I was concerned I would take the gun, a long string (to pull the trigger with), and powder and ball to the range and give it a Proof Test by firing a over-loaded charge. Without knowing the caliber I cannot suggest what this overload would be but there are recommendations available.

 

[Notremor]

Thanks for the advice and consolation. The book I read had very few "pearls". I will check out your recs. I can't believe I didn't think of pouring water down the barrel. It was stuck about 3/4 down so I con't think shooting it out would have been an option.

 

[Birddog6]

TDL: Leave the breechplug alone as there is no reason to remove it. If this should happen again, just take some Ballistol or WD-40 or Liquid Wrench & put down the barrel & let it soak a day & put the RR in a vice & pull on it & it will come out. (Do not jerk as it could snap the RR or shap the tip off) Another option is remove the nipple & attach and take an air hose & blow the rod out as you would discharge a dryball. Possibly a CO2 Discharger would work also. Another option is to remove the nipple & put a grease fitting into the nipple hole & pump it out with grease.

Shooting it out is NOT an option.

Custom Muzzleloaders & Custom Knives .