Breech face fouling trouble

[M. De Land]

I shot a match today and after about 25 shots I started to get hang fires and then flash in pan and no fire. I was picking the flash hole regularly and keeping it clear and still no fire. On three occasions thinking I had some how dry balled I pulled the patched ball and found I hand indeed put powder in the breech. What I discovered is that the fouling had built up on the face of the flat breech plug to the point it was blocking the flash hole.
I used a brass scraping Jag but apparently did not get down to the breech plug face as the problem persisted. Looks like I need to adjust something in the loading procedure or do a thorough bore cleaning after about two relays. Any suggestions ?

 

[Robby]

I always polish the face of the breech plug mirror bright and never have to scrape them. Even so, the build up indicates to me there is an inefficient burning of the powder. What powder and patch/ball combination are you using?
Robby

 

[EC121]

Instead of a scraper, I use a metal bristle breech face brush. Sold by Muzzleloader Builders Supply. I put a wet patch on the bristles and the metal pokes through the patch to help wipe the face. Then a small flashlight shows the shine of the face if it is clean.

 

[dave951]

What powder are you using? Relative humidity can also play a part.

 

[Grenadier1758]

What rifle are you shooting? Does it have a chambered breech or a flat faced breech?

Sounds like you have a chambered breech and fouling has bridged the chamber. This will effectively block the flash from the pan on reaching the main charge. The best recourse is to use a sub caliber brush with a damp patch to clean out the chamber. Then pick the flash channel to make sure that is clear.

 

[Brokennock]

Chambered breach (aka. patent breach)?
What powder?
What do you use in the bore post cleaning?
How do you clean the bore/breach face prior to loading your 1st shot?

Something is causing the powder at the breach face to not burn efficiently. I suspect moisture or oil/grease of some kind.

 

[smoothshooter]

I shot a match today and after about 25 shots I started to get hang fires and then flash in pan and no fire. I was picking the flash hole regularly and keeping it clear and still no fire. On three occasions thinking I had some how dry balled I pulled the patched ball and found I hand indeed put powder in the breech. What I discovered is that the fouling had built up on the face of the flat breech plug to the point it was blocking the flash hole.
I used a brass scraping Jag but apparently did not get down to the breech plug face as the problem persisted. Looks like I need to adjust something in the loading procedure or do a thorough bore cleaning after about two relays. Any suggestions ?

I
I suspect you have a Patent Breech.
I hate them.

 

[Robby]

Yeah, a chambered breech would be a game changer.
Robby

 

[deerstalkert]

I shot a match today and after about 25 shots I started to get hang fires and then flash in pan and no fire. I was picking the flash hole regularly and keeping it clear and still no fire. On three occasions thinking I had some how dry balled I pulled the patched ball and found I hand indeed put powder in the breech. What I discovered is that the fouling had built up on the face of the flat breech plug to the point it was blocking the flash hole.
I used a brass scraping Jag but apparently did not get down to the breech plug face as the problem persisted. Looks like I need to adjust something in the loading procedure or do a thorough bore cleaning after about two relays. Any suggestions ?

does no one read the post!?

 

[ord sgt]

I had a similar problem with a rifle that I "inherited" from a teammate. He used the rifle for competition and for re-enactments, but he was not very good at cleaning. My first attempt at cleaning, I pushed a breech scraper down the barrel, I could feel high and low spots on the breech face. After every time firing the rifle, I got more crud off the breech face until it was finally smooth.
Anyway, back to your question. If you have a touch hole liner installed in your rifle, is it sticking into the barrel? That be hindering your ability to reach the breech face. Check the length of the liner against the barrel wall thickness.

 

[jdw276]

does no one read the post!?

Nope.....

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

My first thought is … are you swapping between shots? As your jag/patch combo might be too tight and you’re PUSHING manure down into the breech rather than PULLING it out on the return stroke.

But to help you further, we would need additional details like caliber, length of barrel, powder charge and what powder grain are you shooting, 2F of 3F, etc.

I myself have never experienced a ’crud ring’ like that all the way down in the breech!

 

[EC121]

Yes, I read all the posts in post. You have to read all the posts to filter out the BS replies and to avoid repeating someones else's answer. If it has been answered, I don't want to waste my time repeating the answer.
I had that fouling plug happen years ago. It built up over time. I was getting the bore clean,but didn't know enough to clean the breech face. I had to unbreech the barrel to dig it out. I should have just plugged the hole and let it soak a while, but I didn't know any better then. That is why I suggested the brush after wiping the bore clean. The breech face is the last step before oiling.
As for happening during a match, that would suggest some moisture in the fouling on the breech face letting it build up over the relays.

 

[waksupi]

I have found it more of a problem with smooth bores than rifles. I just got used to scraping the breech every ten shots or so. I know I have fouling if I make a shot where the hold was good and the target isn't hit. It definitely will affect the accuracy of a gun, along with misfires. Once the breech face is scraped, accuracy returns

 

[nhmoose]

My nephew's rifle did that at a Fort TY match years ago. Scaping did not clear it. Finally we sent a patch grabber the 2 piece curled steel wires it drug up two patches that were against the breech face. Scoured the breech face with a copper breech brush and it was again shiny. Never did find out how the patches ended up there.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

I shot a match today and after about 25 shots I started to get hang fires and then flash in pan and no fire. I was picking the flash hole regularly and keeping it clear and still no fire. On three occasions thinking I had some how dry balled I pulled the patched ball and found I hand indeed put powder in the breech. What I discovered is that the fouling had built up on the face of the flat breech plug to the point it was blocking the flash hole.
I used a brass scraping Jag but apparently did not get down to the breech plug face as the problem persisted. Looks like I need to adjust something in the loading procedure or do a thorough bore cleaning after about two relays. Any suggestions ?

I shoot only flint in competition unless the rules say otherwise. Whenever there is humidity or numerous shots my flat faced breech plugs will also load up with fouling. I try to keep the swabbing to a minimum, but BP face build up still occurs. For me, I maintain a clean TH by scraping with a brass scraper about every 5 to10 shots. The barrel is then inverted and tapped to dump any loose chunks out.
Larry

 

[M. De Land]

My first thought is … are you swapping between shots? As your jag/patch combo might be too tight and you’re PUSHING manure down into the breech rather than PULLING it out on the return stroke.

But to help you further, we would need additional details like caliber, length of barrel, powder charge and what powder grain are you shooting, 2F of 3F, etc.

I myself have never experienced a ’crud ring’ like that all the way down in the breech!

It is a 45 cal GM barrel with a smooth, flat faced breech plug and home built tool steel flash hole liner fit flush with barrel interior contour. I machined the liner interior to match the curve of bore so nothing intruded to catch fouling. The vent is about .200 above the breech face surface. I've been shooting 3F Goex in a 65 grain charge and very tight cotton canvas patches with windshield wash winter grade for patch lube. The first 25 shots are fast and accurate then I start to get slower ignition until hang fire and then no fire. When I got home and cleaned with a scraper and patch the breech face came out shining like a new penny.
I will try a less tight patching and perhaps some 2F and see how that works. Thanks for the patch suggestion and other replies to help iron this out. A brass wire breech plug face scrubber is another good idea.

 

[rich pierce]

I don’t have enough data from others experiencing this problem but I’m wondering if this happens when the touchhole is more than .100 in front of the breechplug. Darn liners.

 

[M. De Land]

I don’t have enough data from others experiencing this problem but I’m wondering if this happens when the touchhole is more than .100 in front of the breechplug. Darn liners.

I built this rifle from a TOTW kit and purposely made the threaded hole for the liner ahead of the breech face/barrel shoulder interface. The rifle is trying to tell me something it isn't happy with and I just need to be patient and figure it out. Thanks for all the replies as it gets me to thinking out side the box and that is always helpful. The first 25 shots or so are very consistent and fast but then she goes South.
Actually I was well pleased with the accuracy of the gun in 2/3rds of the match still winding up with a 3rd place finish even after it went south but I could tell the hang fires were really costing me points.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@M. De Land, there's a couple of things happening here. Your rifle is telling you that the touch hole and likely the internal cone is being blocked by fouling. What it is not telling you is the composition of the fouling. Is the fouling moist? Is the fouling crusty?

I shot a match today and after about 25 shots I started to get hang fires and then flash in pan and no fire. I was picking the flash hole regularly and keeping it clear and still no fire. On three occasions thinking I had some how dry balled I pulled the patched ball and found I hand indeed put powder in the breech. What I discovered is that the fouling had built up on the face of the flat breech plug to the point it was blocking the flash hole.
I used a brass scraping Jag but apparently did not get down to the breech plug face as the problem persisted. Looks like I need to adjust something in the loading procedure or do a thorough bore cleaning after about two relays. Any suggestions?

Your scraping of the breech face removed fouling from the bore but not from the internal cone.

The thorough cleaning of the bore and touch hole might help but the cleaning must include cleaning of the touch hole.

In a related thought, I do believe that @rich pierce is on to an interesting observation. With the touch hole much above 0.100 the breech face, a wiping jag will carry fouling into the touch hole and scrape some fouling bac into the internal cone. Not a lot but it will build up to become a block.

Picking moist fouling will do little good as the fouling will collapse back and block the touch hole. I am assuming you are using a solid pick to open the touch hole. Look for the largest of the dental flossing brushes or the airbrush set from Harbor Freight. The smallest brush fits through my touch hole and does a good job of cleaning the internal cone.

Airbrush Cleaning Brushes. 5 Pc. (harborfreight.com)

By around the 20th shot fouling will be building up and require a lot of touch hole and breech face maintenance to keep the flash channel open. When I use the smallest airbrush tip to open the cone, I will poke a few grains of 4f into the touch hole. Because the touch hole liner is internally coned, you won't have a fuse effect, but you will have a jet of flame blasting into the main charge. When my touch hole gets blocked, that's what I do.