Breaking flints on used/new-to-me musket

[DaveC]

Just got my first flintlock musket.
It was a Pedersoli "Charleville Mle. 1763/66" but was modified to resemble a Mle. 1728/46.
Part of that modification involved replacement of the double-throated cock with a serpentine 'goose neck' variant.

I adjusted the flint with a bevel down and leather pad inside the jaws so that it would strike farther up, like the upper third, of the steel/battery. Sometimes I would get a "flash in the pan" and no main charge would go off. Other times the initiating primer charge in the pan would not go off. At all times the flint began to degrade with visible chips being removed and a concomitant ragged surface or edge. Switched flints with a piece of lead, and had the same results. Broke up the flint quite a bit. Put the old flint in reversed, with the other edge, and it broke off an entire corner of the stone and stopped working very well at all.

My sense is that:
1) the frizzen spring might be too strong vis-a-vis the mainspring?
2) something is awry with the geometry of the replacement goose neck cock.
3) Could the frizzen be toast already and in need of re-treating? It is pretty well scuffed up on the lower third surface, but the top third is still fairly fresh looking.

When I adjusted the flint, I tried to do it such that it was almost touching the battery with the cock at the half-cock position. Maybe it is hitting the upper surface of the steel or battery OK, but at an improper angle?

 

[DaveC]

Could the flints I have simply be too brittle and/or too large for the lock? Could that be the issue? They look black, not obsidian or anything, but like black musket-size English flints... Perhaps an amber flint/ French flint or smaller size might be better?

 

[EC121]

Try bevel up and the edge about 1/8" from the frizzen face. Bevel down may be hitting the face too straight. You can also shim up the back of the flint to get more angle on it.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Just got my first flintlock musket.
It was a Pedersoli "Charleville Mle. 1763/66" but was modified to resemble a Mle. 1728/46.
Part of that modification involved replacement of the double-throated cock with a serpentine 'goose neck' variant.

I adjusted the flint with a bevel down and leather pad inside the jaws so that it would strike farther up, like the upper third, of the steel/battery. Sometimes I would get a "flash in the pan" and no main charge would go off. Other times the initiating primer charge in the pan would not go off. At all times the flint began to degrade with visible chips being removed and a concomitant ragged surface or edge. Switched flints with a piece of lead, and had the same results. Broke up the flint quite a bit. Put the old flint in reversed, with the other edge, and it broke off an entire corner of the stone and stopped working very well at all.

My sense is that:
1) the frizzen spring might be too strong vis-a-vis the mainspring?
2) something is awry with the geometry of the replacement goose neck cock.
3) Could the frizzen be toast already and in need of re-treating? It is pretty well scuffed up on the lower third surface, but the top third is still fairly fresh looking.

When I adjusted the flint, I tried to do it such that it was almost touching the battery with the cock at the half-cock position. Maybe it is hitting the upper surface of the steel or battery OK, but at an improper angle?

First, Pedersoli Charleville muskets are notorious for having pretty strong main springs, and for eating flints.
So with a military musket you're going to need to look at several things.
1) The flint should be bevel UP, with enough distance that the edge of the flint doesn't strike the face of the frizzen at 90. Striking at 90°will likely eat up your flints. BUT..., IF the flint is too short, it will strike the frizzen face too low. With the frizzen closed, you can lower the cock with the flint inserted to touch the frizzen face and judge impact angle and location.
2) IF the flint is so short that it's hitting too low...THEN and only then, you invert the flint, bevel down, to get a higher strike of the flint edge on the frizzen face..., but IF it's then going to hit the frizzen at 90°..., the flint doesn't fit, and it's time to get a new one.
3) The problem that I've seen in more than a couple dozen musket locks that "eat flints" is NOT the frizzen spring....it's the frizzen cam that's the culprit. Too many times I've seen lads trying to lighten that frizzen spring only to booger it all to hades..., then have to replace that spring only to find they are back to square-one. The cam is often too long and not very rounded, and sometimes they have a rough surface. The frizzen spring only need to be depressed a tiny bit as the frizzen rotates forward for it to work, and any farther travel = more work by the flint = slower speed and poor sparks. So with a piece of fine grit emory paper and some drops of oil, you polish and ever so slightly reduce and round that cam. Also polish the upper surface of the frizzen spring where the came comes into contact. I've done this many times, and folks swear I've altered the spring tension, when in fact all that has been done is reduce the friction.
4)Your flint should be wrapped in lead with a hole at the back so the flint rests against the jaw screw.

IF after you've checked the size, and the impact angle, and you just can't find flints that will hit at less than 90°..., you cheat. You cut a piece of lead as wide as the lower jaw of the cock, the same thickness as a small wooden match (in a pinch you can use a spent wooden match) and you place this under the flint at the back of the flint in the jaws...this elevates the back of the flint and lowers the front edge.

Good luck

LD

 

[DaveC]

Ah, OK! Thanks! I'll analyze these issues.
At a recent blank firing against the ejército mexicano I had all sorts of blank-firing problems such that I became a figurative "casualty." I had to opt out of salute firing because I was concerned about the persistent unreliability of ignition and the broken flints issue.

Gonna try shooting some .670 balls out of it soon, so I'll be trying to rectify the problems, and this information should really help a lot. Steep learning curve!

 

[EC121]

What he said.
Plus the frizzen should snap open on its own at about 30-40deg. of opening travel. Usually close to where the flint slides off the bottom of the frizzen face. I watch where the cam is when the frizzen snaps open, and if It isn't right, I hand stone(no Dremels allowed) the cam to put a small corner where I want the frizzen to snap. The cam is usually so hard that it is difficult to overdo it by hand. This will also help stop the frizzen rebounding which is another flint breaker.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Lot of good advice posted so far. I agree, POLISH THAT CAM. Don't mess with the frizzen spring unless all other factors are checked first. I will disagree with LD about the use of lead to hold the flint. Lead allows the flint to shift and possibly come out. Also, being heavy, it can increase the 'smash and shatter' effect when the flint hits frizzen. Use leather, it holds better and provides a bit of a cushion. Good luck.

 

[EC121]

I also keep a pen oiler in my box and use it on the frizzen screw before shooting on the range. I have a friend, who assembles locks for Jim Chambers. His advice is to grease the cam no matter how smooth it is. The fouling will act like grinding compound and eventually will wear a groove in the spring. Once, I got a lock with a grooved spring from being dry on a used rifle. When he saw it, he thought I did it and scolded me for not greasing the cam. I routinely grease the notches, tumbler/mainspring surface, and cam/frizzen spring surface after cleaning. Any grease and a toothpick will work. Common sense should tell us that metal-to-metal surfaces should be lubricated, but that isn't always the case.

 

[Rat]

Yep, mess with springs as a last resort. When I first got my Jeager, it has a very strong main-spring, and I thought "wow, this thing is going to eat flints like they are spicey chicken wings", or Oreos, or potato chips, (or for Brit, fish and chips) but it doesn't, not anymore than my Brown Bess, which has a very "gentle" mainspring, and has long "flint life". (I shimmed it (Bess's mainspring) up a tiny bit for more strength, which also made no difference in flint-life) I've never broken a flint in either gun, and trust me, the Jeager has a very strong main spring. It's like the Arnold of mainsprings.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I will disagree with LD about the use of lead to hold the flint. Lead allows the flint to shift and possibly come out. Also, being heavy, it can increase the 'smash and shatter' effect when the flint hits frizzen.

Actually lead was and is regularly used in military musket repros, as it was in original military, flintlock muskets. ( Lots of recovered original flints have been found with the lead wrap still in place. )

The repros really haven't improved on the design of the original locks on the muskets, and although the springs are robust and the distances the flints move to hit the frizzens are large...the locks are slow compared to modern repro rifle locks and fowler locks. Because of this, and because they are combat weapons where the soldier was likely not allowed to stop and knapp during an engagement unless ordered to do so, the lead is used to give extra mass which helps to maintain the speed of impact even on a not too sharp edge, to generate the spark. In short...you don't want "cushion" in a military musket (hence the opening in the lead so the flint rests upon the jaw-screw.)

Now You're absolutely right a lead wrap is not a good idea on a rifle or fowler lock in most cases, and some of the lock makers will tell you that if you do use lead in the rifle lock you're going to do damage and might not be warrantied.

LD

 

[DaveC]

As I may have indicated, I have both leather and lead and used both. No appreciable difference in the problem I've encountered. I was using lead for authenticity's sake, but most people I know who shoot flintlocks use leather for the pad.

I chucked out the most broken flint, and I've retired the other broken flint for knapping later. I've got a new flint installed, hopefully at a more acute angle to scrape/strike against the steel. The rear of the flint in the lead wrap is nowhere near the jaw screw... Might be another issue? The flint might shift around to left or right when it strikes the battery?

Thanks for the insights. Hope I can get it sorted out.

 

[Rockvillerich]

Just got my first flintlock musket.
It was a Pedersoli "Charleville Mle. 1763/66" but was modified to resemble a Mle. 1728/46.
Part of that modification involved replacement of the double-throated cock with a serpentine 'goose neck' variant.

I adjusted the flint with a bevel down and leather pad inside the jaws so that it would strike farther up, like the upper third, of the steel/battery. Sometimes I would get a "flash in the pan" and no main charge would go off. Other times the initiating primer charge in the pan would not go off. At all times the flint began to degrade with visible chips being removed and a concomitant ragged surface or edge. Switched flints with a piece of lead, and had the same results. Broke up the flint quite a bit. Put the old flint in reversed, with the other edge, and it broke off an entire corner of the stone and stopped working very well at all.

My sense is that:
1) the frizzen spring might be too strong vis-a-vis the mainspring?
2) something is awry with the geometry of the replacement goose neck cock.
3) Could the frizzen be toast already and in need of re-treating? It is pretty well scuffed up on the lower third surface, but the top third is still fairly fresh looking.

When I adjusted the flint, I tried to do it such that it was almost touching the battery with the cock at the half-cock position. Maybe it is hitting the upper surface of the steel or battery OK, but at an improper angle?

Sounds like you're on the right track. I had the same issues with a Pedersoli 1777. I ended up cutting a 1/8" slot in the front side of the double-throated cock, bent it down and welded it with the slightly lower angle which helped, but the thing never sparked as well as most of my other muskets...traded it for a Lenard Day club butt.

 

[PluggedNickel]

My lock tune on 1766 Pedersoli Charleville. It was smashing the flints in the beginning too. A lot of that was frizzen cam geometry, and the frizzen spring was heavy too.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...leville-lock-tuning-completed-finally.114138/

 

[Rifleman1776]

LD, I know lead wrap was originally used on military muskets. When I first made my BB I used lead from round balls I smashed flat with rocks because I wanted to be 'authentic'. I quickly learned why leather is better. Makes me wonder what the effects were on the battlefield when flints fell out of the jaws because 'authentic' lead did not hold them.

 

[DaveC]

Well, the most reliable thing on the military musket was the bayonet, no?

The hole in the jaw screw sure seems mighty useful for torque-wrenching the jaws down... Unfortunately mine doesn't have one!

On the 1808 U.S. cartridge box, there was a tin tray underneath the wooden block. The left and right portions contained extra paper cartridges, but the middle seems to have been for extra flints, flint pads, tow, rags, worm, turn-screw, etc. It was accessed through a little leather hatchway.

 

[DaveC]

I've got some slightly smaller flints on order... That might help too. The flints I have seem mighty big.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

LD, I know lead wrap was originally used on military muskets. When I first made my BB I used lead from round balls I smashed flat with rocks because I wanted to be 'authentic'. I quickly learned why leather is better. Makes me wonder what the effects were on the battlefield when flints fell out of the jaws because 'authentic' lead did not hold them.

I've never experienced any of that. Considering that I've been doing AWI and F&I for more than 25 years, I'd have to say I've got probably 14,000 blanks fired through various Bess muskets, Indian, Japanese, and Italian, and probably 1000 rounds through Charlevilles, Japanese and Pedersoli. I've used the lead from pounded musket balls that were then trimmed with sewing scissors, and also the cast wraps, and leather. Leather I've found worked, BUT you still needed to rest the naked back of the flint against the jaw screw. Lead worked better, and I might have lost a flint on a very rare occasion, but the lead wrap was still in place in the jaws, or the leather and the flint, together disappeared. Never noted that either was superior to the other for gripping..., just for spark production.

Charleville's made in Italy tend, from what I've observed, to come with a stronger main spring than the Bess, so a leather might work equal to the lead..., when it comes to sparking. You may be quite right.

LD

 

[DaveC]

Well, I've updated the thread simply to remark that the frizzen/steel/battery/hammer is toast. Turned out that the part had been welded together where the "L" pan cover met the portion actually struck by the flint, and a large void had been left. That is where it snapped in two...