Brand new

[Artificer]

That is one EXPENSIVE rifle!! In today's £ that's £1370 - converted into today's $ - just under $2000.

Still, it WAS hand-made. But then, so was everything else.

Yep, even more so, it was 4-6 MONTHS wages for the average guy.

Gus

 

[Sidney Smith]

Why give a new guy a hard time because he wants something correct?
We do in fact have very good information on what was is basically correct and what isn't. And Lyman, or T.C. isn't even close, and Pedersoli is only slightly better.
If this is the direction a new Comer thinks they may want to go, it will save them a lot of money over time to get things right the 1st time, or at least as close as possible. Several of us, who do actually care about making an effort at period correct gear, can attest to how much is sucks to buy a bunch of things we think are right, only to do more research, or just spend more time in the hobby and start to care more, and then find out we wasted money on some vendor's fantasy.

So you'd rather this person get caught up in period correctness, then get frustrated when he isn't able to find something. Then he decides not to join our ranks at all. Ok, you're right. While he's at it, he may as well get into all the clothing and other period correct accoutrements as well, because you know that's more important than the experience of making smoke and firing a weapon using bygone technology.

BTW, I was not giving the man a hard time. Merely trying to ease his way into the hobby.

 

[TFoley]

Actually, tac, that's not all that expensive considering it was a custom, carved rifle with a supply of powder.

Reading all the other posts it seems that apart from the guns - musket, mostly - made for the militia - EVERY rifle was custom made, there being no mass-production was we understand it today.

Going back to the apprentice/journeyman thing - the apprentice was indentured to the master gunmaker for a long period of years. His apprenticeship might be as long as seven of more years, during which time he would be fed and clothed by the master as if he was his own son. There might be, and usually was, a codicil to the indenture papers, that having 'passed' his trade and become a journeyman, he might have to work for a period of three to five years for his former master, or be prepared to buy himself out of his commitment in order to set up his own shingle.

Germany still has a degree of this system in place, with apprenticeships places in the gun-making trades, just like here in UK, for stockers and finishers as well as action-makers. A Master gunsmith/maker would be skilled in ALL these elements of gun-making, and would have submitted his 'masterpiece/Meisterstueck' to the trade guild council for their examination. Having pass it, he would then be titled Buchsenmachermeister, or Master Gunmaker, and was then authorised to take on his own apprentices. One such person of my acquaintance was apprenticed to J P Sauer & Sohn, and recalls his first task on Day 2 of his eight-year apprenticeship. Using only files and a set-square, he had to convert a brass cube into a sphere, and a steel sphere into a cube. Then, having achieved that, reverse the process.

This is why I have a quiet chuckle to myself when I read about 6-month-long 'gunsmithing courses' on the internet.

 

[Artificer]

This is why I have a quiet chuckle to myself when I read about 6-month-long 'gunsmithing courses' on the internet.

The gunsmithing course at the Colorado School of Trades takes about 11 -13 months depending on the student.

Trinidad (also in Colorado) has a 4 year degree in Gunsmithing, as does a few other colleges around the country.

Can't remember if it was on this or the other forum that I pc'd with a gunsmith from Canada who spent 11 years on his apprenticeship.

Jerry Kuhnhausen, who was a close personal contact of mine back in the 1990's, had done - I can't remember if it was 7 or 9 years in Germany to get his Master's Certificate.

I went through an 18 month program in the Corps to become an RTE or NM Armorer. However and even though we were called "The Gunsmiths of the Corps," we didn't claim that title since we never made an action or barrel.

Though I had some experience in wood, I had almost no experience in metal when I began my apprenticeship program. So to better teach myself how to hand file metal, I basic sawed out a knife blank profile from flat stock with a band saw and then did ALL the rest of the shaping of the blade by using hand files. After that, I read about an early test for apprentices was they were given a lump of metal and then had to hand file it into a 1 inch cube. That's hard enough but NO measurement could be off more than .001." Though it was not required in the course, I decided to do it and it took me three tries before I did it. That got me in VERY well with the machinists in our shop as they were really impressed with that.

Eventually I became the "Instructor of OJT's" in the shop (Apprenticeship Instructor) and THAT taught me even more as I had to come up with up to five different ways to teach everything to get through to each student.

So I have a HEALTHY respect for the Apprenticeship Programs in the 18th/19th centuries.

Gus

 

[Brokennock]

So you'd rather this person get caught up in period correctness, then get frustrated when he isn't able to find something. Then he decides not to join our ranks at all. Ok, you're right. While he's at it, he may as well get into all the clothing and other period correct accoutrements as well, because you know that's more important than the experience of making smoke and firing a weapon using bygone technology.

BTW, I was not giving the man a hard time. Merely trying to ease his way into the hobby.

A quote directly from the o.p.

I’m wanting one that’s historically correct to pre Revolutionary War.

And maybe he does want to get into the rest of it, maybe not. So what?
Who are you to tell him he shouldn't and imply those that do are wasting our time?

 

[Sidney Smith]

The man didn't mention anything about period clothing. Since he's new he's most likely not going to know certain things. Many people, a few that I know, also said they wanted something period correct, only to realize that PC wasn't really their priority at all. One friend of mine wasn't even aware of the differences between a flintlock and a percussion until he got with a couple of us who started him out on the right path. So just because a newbie says they might want to start out PC, doesn't mean they even know what that means.

 

[hanshi]

Welcome to the forum, Caleb. I agree that about the least expensive rifle authentic to that period would be the Jim Kibler Colonial (.54 or .58 caliber). There are others but new ones (Kibler is a hobby builder's kit) are much, much more costly unless you can locate a good used one; and they are out there for sure. Regardless what you decide get something that fits you and that you like. There's always a trade-off and "Historically Correct" isn't just yes vs no; H/C is a gradient beginning with imported factory muzzleloaders and goes all the way up to "multi-thousand $$" bench copies. There are plenty to choose from so enjoy yourself.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Caleb, as a builder, shooter, historian ans one who appreciates correct architecture and historical correctness I recommend the Kibler Colonial. If you don't want to tackle the build you can get a recommendation from Jim Kibler for someone who can put it together for you and make it worth the canvas it really is.

 

[Jay Templin]

Yes, that's part of it as well. However, apprentices could also not legally choose to leave their apprenticeship and go to work/or get trained somewhere else, which only a Journeyman could do.

Edited to add: In early America, an apprenticeship contract was as legally binding on both parties as a contract for an Indentured Servant. Matter of fact, it was not uncommon for a Master to advertise in the period newspapers and offering a reward for a runaway apprentice.

Gus

Indeed. My favourite reward posted in the Virginia Gazette for a runaway apprentice was “a handful of shavings.” Sounds like he was in a big hurry to get that kid back!
Jay

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

Hi Caleb, welcome from PA.
I have built a few kits over the years, some a little harder than others and can attest to what others here are saying about the Kibler kits being very well designed and easier to put together with a lot of the more demanding work being done for you. So if the thought of putting together a gun that you've put money into is bothering you as to whether or not it will come out ok, ease your mind, it will!
All the best!

 

[Major Tim]

Welcome!

There's nothing wrong if you want to start small. My first Flintlock was a Hawken from Cabela's for less than $300. I wasn't sure if I would like it. I had been shooting Caplocks before then.

 

[Celticstoneman]

Oh, found a link to a rifle that might suit your purpose to copy or give you more ideas:
Rifle Made by John Christian Oerter - Museum of the American Revolution (amrevmuseum.org)

We actually have an original letter from Christian Oerter to a customer on what probably was a somewhat higher grade rifle. The text translated from German reads:

Christiansbrunn, the 9th September, 1773

Most valued Friend Martin Baer,

At your request I have prepared [completed/finished] a good rifle and sent it over to Mr. John Hopson together with 4 pounds of Powder. The rifle is decorated [inlaid] with silver wire and well made, as well as tested and she shoots right well. It has a double trigger, so that you can fire with the triggers either unset or set. Between the triggers there is a screw with which you can make it lighter or harder to fire. There is also a ball puller with which you can pull the ball out no matter how rusty she gets. She costs 8 pounds all together and with the powder @ 3 shillings per pound makes twelve shillings, for a total of L8.12.-. Because it is very good powder I have added two pounds more than you requested. I hope it will suit you well. You can write me a couple lines to let me know how you like it. Together with friendliest greetings I am your faithful
friend and servant,

Christian Oerter
Gunmaker

Also, here's another link you may enjoy:

The Pre-Revolutionary North Carolina Rifle - Scavengeology

Gus

Gus
That is a great link on Scavengology ! Thanks.
John

 

[Artificer]

Gus
That is a great link on Scavengology ! Thanks.
John

You are most welcome.

Gus