BP handgun for hunting

Discussion in 'Handguns' started by jaxenro, Sep 6, 2013.

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  1. Jan 2, 2014 #101

    cynthialee

    cynthialee

    cynthialee

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    Took me three bullets to drop a wild cat with a .44 BP handgun yesterday.
    Now if I had been calmer and more collected it likely would have only taken 1, but we can not control every white knuckle moment.
     
  2. Jan 2, 2014 #102

    satx78247

    satx78247

    satx78247

    Cannon MLF Supporter

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    VERY TRUE.

    ImVho, it depends MAINLY on the "expected range to target", as to whether a handgun of any sort is suitable for big game.
    In the northeast TX swamps where I usually hunt WT, the "usual range" is LESS than 30M, as you cannot SEE a WT farther away than that.

    Fwiw, my first cousin killed a doe recently at NINE LONG STEPS with a 1860 Army Model & could probably have killed that "collie sized" (about 70#) doe with a .22 Short or a thrown good-size brickbat.
    (Remind me sometime to tell you "the long sad story", about why Randy's "official deer camp nickname" is "SCOUT AXE".= He's never lived that down & it's been about 15 years!)

    yours, satx
     
  3. Jan 2, 2014 #103

    azmntman

    azmntman

    azmntman

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    What kinda wild cat Cythia? Bobcat, mnt lion? mean ol wild house cat? where ya hit it?
     
  4. Jan 3, 2014 #104

    rodwha

    rodwha

    rodwha

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    I'm curious myself.
     
  5. Jan 3, 2014 #105

    cynthialee

    cynthialee

    cynthialee

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    Mt Lion.
    Missing a front leg, bones exposed from the elbow to the wrist, starved. Looked like it was in that condition for awhile.
     
  6. Jan 3, 2014 #106

    azmntman

    azmntman

    azmntman

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    Well good for you! He better off than starving or being bear dinner. I once ate some lion, taste like a pork chop. I was drunk though, at a wild game feats 30+ years ago, so drunk I though the mnt oysters were scallops, pretty good there for a while! LOL.

    BTY 3 shots with BP pistol at a lion is good shootin! I am impressed!
     
  7. Jan 3, 2014 #107

    cynthialee

    cynthialee

    cynthialee

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    there was nothing left on him to eat
    I was able to drag it out into the forest by the tail. Weighed less than my pitbull/great dane mutt does. Paws were huge. Cat should have weighed twice what it did.
     
  8. Jan 3, 2014 #108

    Dphar

    Dphar

    Dphar

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    This is a response to a number of posts here.

    A 54 pistol will kill deer or Elk dead as a 54 rifle will since the pistol velocity, if loaded for hunting, will be in the range of a rifle at 100-120 yards and a 54 RB will kill either farther than that. Yes, the hunter needs to be able to place the shot. But this is universal regardless of firearm.
    This a 54 RB and the upper leg bone from a pistol killed deer at 20-25 yards. Deer crashed in 25 or so yards after being shot. Ball would have passed through had I not hit the bone. It broke the leg, another bone I think and got the heart of the arteries at the heart (been near 20 years now).
    [​IMG]
    I never chronoed this load but it was probably close to 1000 fps, the pistol liked a lot of powder to shoot well since it had a 70" twist.

    A RIFLED ML pistol is accurate enough for more than 25 yards if the SHOOTER can do it and does LOAD DEVELOPMENT. The owner of the 58 caliber pistol in my first post told me he would not hesitate to shoot an elk with it at 50 yards and he is highly experienced.
    Barrel too big? Anyone who has shot a 54-58 caliber pistol with a lad that will get to near 1000 fps knows they recoil like a 44 mag and can be "unfun" to shoot if too light.


    This pistol with the "dueler" TG and a tapered barrel 1" to 7/8" or 15/16 to 7/8" can't remember which, anyway it produced more recoil than I liked. It's not shootable with more than 40-45 grains but gave decent accuracy with this at 25 yards.
    [​IMG]

    66" twist 54.
    More powder really whacks the longest finger on the TG. Why the pistol in my first post has a different TG. I knew it was going to be shot with heavy loads with a 270 gr ball.

    ME is not a valid measure of the killing power of BP arms since it favors velocity. Something BP is not very good a producing. Its not even that great at predicting killing power in smokeless arms since a HV poorly constructed bullet will often crater the surface and not penetrate sufficiently to produce a kill except in the future when the animal dies of infection or the inability to get back up after it escapes and then lies down to rest. The ME is "legal" but the bullet is not deadly. "Knock down" is a term that does not apply for the most part since in my experience its nearly impossible the knock a deer down unless they are the size of a German Shepard. It does happen but its rare. Its more common with things like a 25-06 with a 87-100 grain bullet. But the meat loss can be extensive.

    I suspect that is one were to shoot 10 deer with a 44 mag and 10 with a 54 FL pistol and 10 with a Colt Dragoon with a RB there would be little difference seen in "killing power" with SIMILAR SHOT PLACEMENT. Remember that out of the typical 44 mag, 4-6" the 44 mag is really little more than a 44-40 BP load fired from a rifle and this is an Abysmal deer load from my perspective, though its killed lot of deer. I have shot one deer with 38-40 (37 gr of FFF and the lyman 38/40 bullet) it killed the deer about as quickly as anything else but the wound channel through the lungs (30-40 yard shot) was very small much smaller than a 45 RB with 45 gr of powder at a 40-50 yards. A friend who has used 44-40 said its just as anemic. So just because something has "magnum" in the name does not make it magic. There is no real advantage other than perhaps faster followup shots if the first one is badly placed than with a single shot ML pistol. Over a Colt Dragoon no real advantage at all, except its lighter.

    Dan
     
  9. Jan 3, 2014 #109

    Dphar

    Dphar

    Dphar

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    And it would be better to compare them using Thornily's formula
    Thornily's

    or Taylors
    Taylor

    These are less ME oriented.

    The results of the Thompson-LaGarde tests show that a large diameter (45 in this case) lead bullet is far more effective than is indicated by its ME. This has proven to be the case in my experience in hunting with lead bullets in BPCRs and with RBs in MLs.
    Since we do not deal with HV smokeless loads it is perhaps better to deal with actual effectiveness based formulas than ME. Which, as has been repeatedly stated over the years by quite a number of experienced hunters, is a poor measure of killing or even stopping power. Thus we have the Taylor and Thornily formulas based more of field experience.

    Dan
     
  10. Jan 3, 2014 #110

    Davemuzz

    Davemuzz

    Davemuzz

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    Well, ghee Dan. I don't know how many deer you have shot with a .44 magnum. Now first, I don't get all enamored over the term magnum. It's just a nomenclature used to differentiate the 44 special vs the 44 magnum. However, I've shot a fair share of Penn. doe with my handload's of Hornady 200gr. XTP's over VV N-110 at a MV close to 1,600fps. These doe have either flipped 'n dropped there, or not went much more than 30 to 40 yards before piling up.

    The gun gives off a pretty substantial boom. Maybe that's the reason? But I wouldn't describe it as anemic.

    Dave
     
  11. Jan 4, 2014 #111

    Dphar

    Dphar

    Dphar

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    Anemic is a relative term of course. The BP 44-40 was about 1250-1300 from a rifle. When I think 44 mag 200 gr bullets do not occur, my mistake. But the comments on 54, 44 Dragoon and 44 as deer killers still stands.
    Just for fun.
    54 with 90 gr fff Swiss done a couple of years ago when my daughter was visiting.
    Water Jug vs the 54 Don King Hawken

    Guess I need to shoot one with one of the 54 pistols if I had some ligth HPs I could try the M29 too just for giggles.
    Deer that drop to the shot are a rarity regardless of what they are shot with. Then tend to run till the brain shuts down if not otherwise disabled. Does not seem to matter if is its a PRB, a BPCR Bullet or a modern Magunum
    Dan
     
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