Boiled leather for sheaths

[Ken Cormier]

Trying to make a boiled leather sheath for a new knife. How long/much do ya boil it. I want to do 2 sheaths 1 brain tanned elk . The other is commerical cow .

 

[Nifeman]

Why do you want to boil it????

 

[Black Hand]

Are you making sheaths......or soup????

 

[George]

Everything I've read about boiled or jacked leather talked about vegetable tanned leather, I think. Bark tanned, oak tanned, etc. I don't know that it will work with brain tanned leather. The commercial leather you mention might be OK unless it's chrome tanned or oil tanned.

Spence

 

[shortbow]

This one is a new one on me and I've been working with leather for years. I'll do some research, but in the meantime, can you guys tell me just what boiled leather is, how it's done, what it's use for, how it (I guess?) is better than regular old veg tanned cowhide?

Lotso thanks. Sure sounds intriguing.

 

[Black Hand]

There is "Cuir-bouilli" which translated means "boiled leather", made by dipping leather into boiling water/vinegar or melted wax. It is used for making jackware or armor, but I've not seen it used for knife sheaths. Stiffens, and at times, shrinks the leather, which when done inproperly leads to a very brittle product.

Unboiled leather (veg-tan) or braintan with an inner birchbark sheath should do just fine. Don't forget to use a welt in the veg-tan sheath.

 

[George]

I've had no experience with it, have only read about it. Boiling vegetable leather makes it extremely hard, tough and somewhat brittle. It's an ancient technique, was used for armor, and some use was made of it in our period of interest, Revolutionary war up through WWI, apparently. Caps and boots for cavalrymen to protect against sword cuts, and the British Royal Guard still have it as part of some uniform of theirs. Here's a reference from Revolutionary times, in the form of a list of required equipment for Continental cavalry put out by the Continental Congress in 1778. Eleven items were listed, number 6 concerns jacked leather:

"The Pennsylvania Gazette
Date: March 7, 1778
In CONGRESS, February 27, 1778.

6. A helmet of jacked leather, and effectually guarded by several rows of small chain, iron or steel hoops, or a hat with a steel or iron scull piece inside the crown."

Not sure what the advantage would be for a plain knife sheath.

Spence

 

[Ken Cormier]

Well I guess I really did not research it enough.I know a guy that made his own cavalry cap . I had read about curi-bouilli thought I would try something differnt if it didn't come out p/c then thats ok I could carry one of my other 20 knifes, (yes I have a knife adiction) I have refined my rigging to meet MY expections of a New England farmer/hunter and ANY juried event I care to attend. 30 years of having fun doing this lifestyle has brought me to a place I am happy with my gear.
The knife sheaths are just a experment the world is a safer place when my hands are busy LOL

 

[LaBonte]

The cuir bouilli or boiled leather (a misnomer and no you don;t necessarily put in boiling water) method was widely used in period especially for making unlined center seam sheaths - this is the one part of the process of making this type sheath the modern guys building them miss. Knife sheaths, sword, sheaths, and bayonet sheaths were all made that way in period, especially by the commercial makers.
The reason for it is it stiffens and makes the leather much much harder to cut through the sheath and yes that does and can happen and is IMO especially important for center seams especially when made with the thinner leathers needed/used - after making about 8,000 sheaths in the last 50 years I have seen all kinds of ways to ruin sheaths/injure ones self. With all due respect to some of the folks making such sheaths, but they can be cut through and this method makes that much less probable, plus it is based on my years of research MORE PC than the un-hardened sheaths - drying a sheath out with chemicals such as acetone, stiffens the leather but does not technically harden it the way cuir bouilli does. The process is fairly simple one.
I have also had the good luck to examine early sheaths and have friends in Europe that have even more accesss who have helped with my research on the subject of sheaths.

For one of the best treatises on the method, including how-to info see here: http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/leather/hl.html

NOTES: -
1) cuir bouilli can only be used on veg/bark tan leather and cow is best. Soft tanned leathers such as brain tan or commercial elk/deer will not work with this method.
2) My notes regarding the use of this method should be mostly applied to the commercially nade period sheaths, period home brewed gear is a different story and may or may not include the use of this method.

 

[shortbow]

LaBonte, :bow: Many thanks for your insights here. This makes so much sense to me, as although I'm way shy of the 8000 mark, I've made my share of sheaths and have been very suspicious of using the centre seam method because a sharp knife is made for cutting and leather is comparatively soft. When I can glide thru a piece of ten oz. veg tan on the table with even a moderately sharp knife in one pass, I want lots of protection, that's why I've so far stuck to side seam sheaths with a nice thick welt.

I'm going to read your link on boiled leather with great interest as I would surely like to learn to make centre seam scabbards that are as safe as the side seam.

Cheers.

 

[crockett]

Chuck: I have to admit that so far I've just soaked the leather and pulled it over either the knife or the pistol- depending on what I was making. With this method I usually put a couple of thin shims on either side of the blade, wrap in aluminum foil and then plastic- so the knife or pistol doesn't rust- and let the leather dry for about 2-3 days. If you do the boiled leather-it sounds like the leather might shrink a lot more- would what I am doing be enough to pull the knife or pistol out of the sheath/holster or should something else be done? I'll fess up to some past situations, a Bowie knife comes to mind- inwhich I simply could not pull the knife out- I ended up cutting the stitches, taking the knife out and then sewing the sheath up again- which then worked okay.
And- do you boil the leather and then quickly stick in the knife/pistol or do you have the knife/pistol in place and boil everything together?
Thanks- if it is the pc way, then from now on that's what I'll do. After all- isn't that the point of what we do- to use what was.
Still learning here- which is GOOD because that's what makes it fun. :grin:

 

[MSW]

thanks, LaBonte, for the post ... i took the liberty of printing it, which i thought i had done before, but now cannot seem to locate the copy.

i put a small knife sheath on a patch knife (which i then attached to the shoulder strap of my hunting bag. if i remember correctly, i uses the dip it quickly into very hot water (about 185 F, for about ninety seconds).. then i pressed the leather around the knife, which i had wrapped in saran wrap to keep the water from rusting it. the leather took the form well, and when i had added a gusset, the sheath kept the knife in the strap well and looks pretty good. while this might or might not be PC/HC, it serves my purpose well and i can't see where a bored and inventive farmer might not have taken some leather scrap and given this method a try.

one guy's free opinion, no doubt worth twice the price!

 

[shortbow]

Well I printed out the article and read it all and it turns out I've done boiled leather without knowing it.

How I've done it in the past was for shot flasks and such, but hadn't thought to do it for a center seam sheath. What I do is to build whatever it is - if it works for the flasks, it'll work for sheaths - to the finished point save any dye or dressing, get my oven up to 250f while melting bee's wax. I paint melted wax onto the leather till it's nice and thick and put it in the oven until the wax is absorbed. Repeat until the leather is as saturated as it can get.

With flasks you wouldn't believe how hard the unit gets doing it this way, which of course is the point of boiled leather. According to the article, this is one of the ways it is done and it is theorized that it may be the heat rather than the wax that accomplishes the task.

All around, this has been a great and informative thread.

And Crockett, with the flasks I've experienced no shrinkage at all.

 

[BillinOregon]

Whatever you do, don't plop a nice piece of braintan into hot liquid. I did this, putting the leather in a bucket of hot walnut dye and that poor little piece of leather shriveled up into a useless blob.

:redface:

 

[LRB]

If all goes well, I am going to give it a try with a sheath tomorrow, but I intend to bake it.

 

[LaBonte]

As noted above you DO NOT need to dip the leather in boiling water for making a sheath - the leather simply needs to be dampened with water and then dried at 150°-160° F . I use a food dehydrator type setup to control the heat but a regular oven set at low will work - sometimes leaving the door open a crack will keep the heat low enough - too high and you will cook it. The tough part is getting the right moisture content in the leather - it should be cased the same way you do for toolin - damp though but not sopping wet - the smooth surface of the leather should look dry (compare to a dry piece of the same leather) but feel cool/damp to the touch. As to shrinkage, when done right there is little to none.

Experiment with the same exact leather before making your final piece. Weight, denseness of the leather, etc are all factors and vary from hide to hide.

Wick - I'll be around later this afternoon if you want to talk about the process.......

Word of caution - No matter what, you will at times mess up and destroy the sheath - it's just part of the process....

 

[LaBonte]

Whatever you do, don't plop a nice piece of braintan into hot liquid. I did this, putting the leather in a bucket of hot walnut dye and that poor little piece of leather shriveled up into a useless blob.

:redface:

Bill braintan cannot take the heat like bark/veg tan can, but there is NO NEED to use water hotter than luke warm, unless one is making heavy armour.

 

[LRB]

Chuck I had figured on 150°, and oddly enough, had decided for it to be just damp, but I will let it dry more like you said. If it fails, I will send it to you in the mail with a turtle t#*d stuffed inside. How long should it cook??

 

[shortbow]

Further to the tacked sheaths. I had a look around my pile today and found some brass tacks of the type used for canoe building. I tried it Chuck's(if I may be so bold?) way and it worked great. I only tried it in two pieces of 10oz veg tanned so I could see that it would work even better in reasonably thick rawhide.

You would not believe how long I've wondered about this. I feel that getting this question answered is a real bonus to hanging out in this camp, along with all the other great stuff.

Wick and Chuck, I note youse fellers are talking about doing the boiled thing with damp water and mild heat, but if you haven't tried it with bee's wax it might be worth a go because it really does make amazingly hard leather plus it is almost as water-proof as glass.

 

[LaBonte]

Chuck I had figured on 150°, and oddly enough, had decided for it to be just damp, but I will let it dry more like you said. If it fails, I will send it to you in the mail with a turtle t#*d stuffed inside. How long should it cook??

I let it "cook" until fry - as to the turtle feces - I'll dry it and use as filler in my cutler's resin :rotf: :thumbsup: :rotf: