Black Powder Substitutes in flint lock rifles

[gunsports]

Just a bit of an update.

We’ve managed to reduce the time difference down to 1/25th of a second.

First, we established a bench mark using Wano FFg black powder for the main charge, and Swiss 4F as the prime. (Load was 80gn vol.) A consistent time of 4/25th of a second was recorded; using the test equipment we had available. The rifle used was an Isaac Haines inspired long rifle; .58 cal, Rice 44” swamped octagonal barrel, Chambers lock and a double set trigger.Vent was a White Lightning, with a 1/16th orifice.

We then used our locally available substitute powder (rifle grain); again 80gr (vol.) as the main charge and for the prime, used a 50/50 mixture of Swiss 4F and substitute powder; this time the pistol grain. Ignition time was consistent at 5/25th of a second.

Our ”˜testing’ equipment consisted of a Panasonic video camera, recording at 25 frames per second. Film clips of the gun firing was recorded and them; individual frames were viewed on the computer using Nero 7 software. Frames were counted as follows: -

The frame where hammer movement was first observed; was counted as frame no. 2. Subsequent frames were then counted till there was a plume of smoke from the barrel, signalling that the bullet had exited. This was the last frame counted. Thus, we counted frame one: The sear tripping; frames 2 ”“ 3: Ignition and frame 4: The bullet having left the barrel. As the recording and playback speed of the film clip was 25 frames per second; a series of 4 consecutive frames would then count as 4/25th of a second, and so on.

Our measuring methods may be on the primitive side, but we obtained a fair indication of the ignition times of the two powder types used. In fact, with better testing equipment, faster times could be possible; as time intervals can be more accurately measured.

Now, 1/25th of a second may seem a long time but in reality, there was no observable difference in the actual firing of the rifle.

Some valuable observations were made and which may be of interest.

One: Black powder ignites best by radiant heat; hence the recommendation that the prime should be positioned below the vent. Substitute powder on the other hand, ignites best by direct flame, thus the vent should be covered to provide a continuous burn path.

Two: The ignition temperature of substitute powder is much higher than black powder; hence the mix of substitute powder and 4F priming powder; this to raise the ignition temperature. Tests using substitute powder with a prime of 4F only, or a prime of substitute powder only, showed significantly slower ignition times.

Three: Most quality built flint lock guns have the vent placed in line with the top of the pan. Now, to affect a continuous burn path between prime and the main charge, much more priming powder is needed to cover the vent. (There is no benefit in ”˜banking’ the powder against the vent; as movement of the rifle will displace the powder away from the vent, slowing ignition times.) Thus, if a flint lock rifle is being built for use with substitute powder only, consideration should be given to placing the vent lower. Our remedy here for existing guns is to line the vent with some sheet brass; soft soldered in; this to lift the floor of the pan and thus reducing the amount of priming powder needed.

Four: Substitute powders ignite best (and fastest) when the ignition flame is under pressure; like in a percussion cap. This is, to my view, one of the main reasons for the ignition delays when using substitute powders in a flint lock. There is no remedy.

These tests were repeated with two other flint lock guns. One was a commercially bought Euroarms ”˜Kentuckian’; the other a purpose built 12 bore smooth rifle using a Colerain Griffen 42” swamped smooth barrel and a Petersoli Grice (Brown Bess lock). Although different ignition times were recorded (The ”˜Bess lock is very slow), the time differences between black and substitute powder was the same: 1/25th of a second.Both were fitted with White Lightning vents, 1/16th orifices.

Duplex loads, like those recommended by certain manufacturers, were also tried. But, we found that the small charge of 5gr of 4F powder behind the substitute powder; in especially large calibre barrels, gave inconsistent ignition times. ”˜Booster’ charges in the region of 15 ”“ 25gr of black powder (NOT priming powder), proved far more reliable and consistent.

Tests were also conducted with combustible (cigarette paper) paper powder cartridges; where a duplex load; consisting of about 10gr of 2F black powder, behind a substitute powder was loaded. This proved most successful, with ignition times equal to that of using black powder only. But, the user had to pierce the cartridge through the vent to ensure 100% ignition. Priming was as for normal black powder loads.

In conclusion: We’ve basically reduced the firing delays when using substitute powders in flint guns to a level where it is not observable in normal use; provided some adjustment in priming methodology is observed.

I post this as; from the reading on this and other sites, you have areas in the ”˜States where black powder is becoming difficult to source and, to save both time and expense, substitute powders may have to be considered. I have no experience with the powders available over there, but a substitute powder, close in characteristics to that available over here; may prove successful in your flint lock guns.

Glen McGill
Oudtshoorn
South Africa.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Glen: Thank you for the post. Very interesting study. The times, however, are very slow, compared to how our guns and BP ignite. I suspect from what you have written, that we differ in how we treat the priming charge and the main charge.

I don't cover the TH with priming powder, EVER. That leads to a slower ignition every time. I understand that some people believe this is just the natural way that flintlocks are to work, but I politely and firmly disagree.

Heat rises.

I place my powder next to the barrel, but under the TH, keeping it free of powder. Then, burning priming powder creates heat that rises UP and INTO the TH to ignite the main charge.

I also use my vent pick to move powder around in the main charge, through the TH, so that I expose MORE granules of powder in the main charge to the heat from the burning priming powder outside the barrel. In effect, I make a hole in the main charge, allowing both flame and heat to reach more granules of powder faster. This has made ignition of the main charge very quick. "kBOOM", where "k" is the sound of the flint striking the frizzen, and the "BOOM" is the gun firing. The lock has to be tuned, however, so that the sparks are thrown into the pan before the hammer finishes it fall.( forward movement)

I also don't compress the powder charge in my flintlocks- just the opposite of what I do with my percussion guns. I tip the barrel to the side, so that my powder slides down the barrel to the breech, when loading a flintlock, so the powder does NOT COMPACT. If you load the powder into a vertical barrel, the gravity compacts the powder charge.

From considerable testing with my chronograph, over many different range sessions, I found that compacted powder charge- either by gravity in a "drop tube" or by manually compressing the powder with a ramrod-- Gives the lowest SDV in percussion rifles.

The opposite in the case with flintlocks. Non-compacted powder charges in flintlocks seem to give a much better( lower) SDV in my guns. POI is lower than if the powder is compacted, but a few extra grains of powder bring the POI back up to the sights' point of aim.

I also found that percussion guns gain both velocity and a lower standard deviation of velocity if the powder is both compressed, and of a small granule size( 3Fg vs. 2Fg, for instance.)

Until I get down to .40 caliber and smaller bore diameters, my flintlocks seem to get better velocity and SDV using 2Fg powder. Not faster per volume loaded- that always goes to the smaller granule powder. But, the consistence of velocity improves when using 2Fg for some reason.

My "theory" is that the larger granules leave more oxygen in the larger spaces between granules, and fire LOVES oxygen, giving a better, and more complete burning of the larger granule powder.

I later found that using a good vegetable Fiber wad over the powder causes an even more dramatic decrease in the SDV for both percussion and flintlock rifles and smoothbores, shooting PRBs, and that the powder residue of the larger powder granule size is now equal to the residue from the smaller granule size powders. The Decrease indicates that the powder charges are being burned more efficient, and more completely in the barrels, in both kind of Locks.

The reduced size Grit left in the barrels when 2Fg was an unexpected surprise, and a welcome one. When we saw the readings on the chronograph indicating higher velocities, and lower SDVs, that was simply a BONUS.

Keep up the good work. :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

Paul

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Hi Glen,
My compliments on your work. I can appreciate all the effort your project took. The experiment deserves timing equipment that can handle smaller increments. It's too bad we live on separate continents.

I hope at some future time to get my hands on the Olympus high speed video cam we used at Friendship. With it we could do 5000 fps; that yields .0002 second. The trouble with that is that it costs a year's income. Each time we used it there was a company rep with the camera.

The flintlock timing I do can do to the nearest .0001 second - doesn't use photography. Photos start and stop time while a computer runs a machine language sub-routine. the interface used with the computer was developed for a high school physics class. Below are a few pics of the equipment:

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The pics below show a method of holding a lock which has no lock retaining holes drilled. My thanks to Keith Lisle, who made this for me. It is used with a different fixture than the one shown above.

The top fixture is ready for the next experiment I want to run. I will time three different Silers - all having different frizzen spring strengths.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Every time a thread starts about primed loads. I'm baffled.

I'm speaking for the US, because I don't know what the powder situation is like in South Africa.

A primed load requires BP to work. That means you need a source for BP. Whether you're lucky to have a store close by to buy it, or you have to get it online. Either way you can use straight BP.

Why would you want to use a BP sub, and prime it?

 

[Larry Pletcher]

You addressed this to me, but may have meant for Glen to answer.

Glen's situation in S Africa is much different than the US. He has a terrible time getting real BP and is trying to make what he has go as far as possible. Imagine not being able to get (import) BP, no.11 caps, musket caps, etc. In that case we would do exactly what he is doing. So far we are blessed to be able to get pretty much what we want. (I understand it's harder in some areas than others even here in the US.)

Glen related some of this to me in a PM. I'm sure he will explain his situation better than I.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Pete Gaimari]

It was just a general post. I should have stated that, so you wouldn't think it was to you. Sorry.

I did say I didn't know what the situation was in South Africa. My point is, I see guys here in the states doing primed loads, and I know we can get any powder we want here. For now anyway.

Before somebody calls me on it. There may be a few that live in the boonies that can't get deliveries of BP, but in that case you wouldn't have any BP to prime with.

 

[tg]

I really think all shooters should try as hard as possible to find real BP whether using Flint or percussion compromising will just make it harder and harder to get the real thing, if folks would not have taken pyro with open arms 40 years ago BP may have been more desirable for vendors to keep on hand.Whenever people compromise when it is not really neccesary there are likely consequences.

 

[jerrywh]

We will always be able to buy black powder if 2/3 of the so called gun enthusiasts will get over the idea that they can depend on someone else to preserve their rights. If you want to win the game you have to be a player. A fence straddler generally gets his butt caught in the barb wire. The best priming substitute for ffffg black powder is fffg black powder, that's about it.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

I use a ten grain charge of 3f Old Eynsford as my primary charge under some Triple Seven... priming pan is primed with the 3f. Not the best system, but it works and it helps to stretch the supply of BP. I do the same with percussion guns.

 

[Ed Pilkington]

Skyline, I’m reminded of Dan’l, Simon, Davy and our unknown forefathers making all things work together. They survived. We will survive if our TV’s go away, the Government put’s bounty on our heads and our cars turn to rust. This earth is ours. It is “up to us to figure it out”. The Bible, the Gun, the Grit wasn’t just Hollywood. It was a serious, grim, committed way of life.
PS: they took their fiddles and banjos with them to record and sing about “life”

 

[Johnny Tremain]

LMAO when I saw this

 

[nhmoose]

11 year old post, Subs still don't work well in flintlocks